JudithB
Well-Known Member
I meant to add and I have to get over myself and listen to what she has to say and look at what I can do to influence the other white women around me to stop their behaviour. It is not about my feelings.
Teenager who filmed himself raping girl 'deserves leniency because he's from a good family’-US judge
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I meant to add and I have to get over myself and listen to what she has to say and look at what I can do to influence the other white women around me to stop their behaviour. It is not about my feelings.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Why are you suddenly blaming women for not coming up with the solution?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I’m not.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
You are definitely trying to take the emphasis off of men
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't think we are in that much disagreement, I would be happy if actions could be taken to prevent future young rapists and if that requires more rigorous compulsory sex education at school focussing a good deal on issues of consent that would likely be a good thing. Or other actions, details of which others will probably know more than me.
I just typed a rather long and personal text which I have decided not to post. The crux of it is that there just are some bad apples which we all have to look out for.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I think men need to start calling rapists boys or men who rape. We need to acknowledge who does he raping. Women do not rape.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
It doesn't really relate to this discussion, and could be something of a semantic rabbithole anyway, but women can rape. In the same way that women can perpetrate abuse, and facilitate or conspire with others, ie. men, to rape and abuse. Quite a few have been convicted for such offences.
Which is why I was quite carefully non-gender-specific in what I wrote - the bulk of the issue is a male one, but it's not exclusively a male one. But women are not universally "sugar and spice", either. What is undoubtedly true is that prevalence of these behaviours is massively greater in men than in women.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
The last time I wrote people with penises I got slaughtered. So am ready for the onslaught.
In the UK rape is the penetration of a person with a penis.
No women are not nice, but they commit less than 2% of all sexual crimes and those big names we know about were under the coercive control of psychopaths.
We need to be able to name the problem. It is unfortunate but it is men and boys who commit 98% of the sexual assaults and referring to the stats before - we know that men and boys will know those do it or have done. This is never saying all men do. It's like any discussion around safeguarding it is the protection of the vulnerable from the bad apples.
If men could get over that feeling of guilt because they are part of the sex class that commits these crimes then we might get somewhere with having a decent conversation about it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Or rather very few women rape. While looking at information about rape statistics in the USA I came across this Rape statistics - Wikipedia which says that female-male rape has begun to be investigated while there's been scant research on female-female rape.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
No I'm not. I'm trying to point out to you that other factors, power, class, the courts etc etc are at play too.
Don't try and make up what I'm trying to say based on your own agenda. You know nothing about me.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We might be rather nearer having a decent conversation about it if there were fewer allegations of sex-wide guilt, if there were fewer insistent retreads of ground so well covered on previous threads and if you showed any chance of moving the discussion from auld arguments into a discourse not covered here over the past nineteen or so years
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I think you'll find that the process of getting over the feeling of guilt is a little more straightforward if we don't start trying to draw entirely gender-based sharp distinctions between people in the first place. Because they actually get in the way of the notion that, ultimately, we - men and women - have a part to play in dealing with the problem, and we all suffer by the problem arising. We don't have to be on opposing sides on this.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You think you've tried?
You really are brave sir robin. When opposition or counter-points or -arguments are presented, instead of meeting them you bravely turn your tail and flee.
You're more the cut and run of debate than the cut and thrust
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think this is off the mark, tbh. I am disgusted and sickened by rape and rapists, but I don't feel guilty about it because I'm a man. Sorry, I really don't. Other men may chip in here and disagree, but as a first stab at characterising the situation, I think this is wrong.
For me at least, some of why it's wrong is because, as has come up on other threads, I don't feel in any way part of some 'team man', and never have, partly because that signals to me the kind of poisonous culture that led to this boy doing what he did, which I've always hated.
They didn't say women don't know any rapists. Women can't easily avoid knowing them or knowing that they know them.
It is easier for men to pretend they don't notice the dodgy comments, the hanging around drunk women, the 'banter'. It's safer not to speak up. Every time a #hashtag goes viral there are men saying they're shocked. It gets harder and harder to believe them.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
It's more to do with going to bed at around 10 p.m. most week nights because I get up at 5 a.m. most week daysYou think you've tried?
You really are brave sir robin. When opposition or counter-points or -arguments are presented, instead of meeting them you bravely turn your tail and flee.
You're more the cut and run of debate than the cut and thrust
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I think you might have misunderstood me. I don't expect you to personally feel guilty for rape.
A lot of men feel very uncomfortable talking about violent issues that are the fault of men. It is why the the Gillette advert caused such a commotion or the #metoo movement had such a backlash. Women keep trying to have the conversations. Women would very much like for men and boys to stop raping us. 20% of us are victims of rape/sexual assault. But when we try to have the conversation we come up against those who react to Gillette/#metoo and the conversation is stopped. It happens time and again. I'd be interested to know what you think men are experiencing that makes them react in such a fashion?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Well, now that this has turned into yet another men vs women thread, I'm all done with it.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
I think you might have misunderstood me. I don't expect you to personally feel guilty for rape.
A lot of men feel very uncomfortable talking about violent issues that are the fault of men. It is why the the Gillette advert caused such a commotion or the #metoo movement had such a backlash. Women keep trying to have the conversations. Women would very much like for men and boys to stop raping us. 20% of us are victims of rape/sexual assault. But when we try to have the conversation we come up against those who react to Gillette/#metoo and the conversation is stopped. It happens time and again. I'd be interested to know what you think men are experiencing that makes them react in such a fashion?
The real figure must be much higher than 20%. Almost every woman I know has been sexually assaulted in some form or another and many of them have been raped. And I know that this isn't something peculiar to the women I know. Many other women, on these boards for example, have said similar over the years.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Unfortunately it's the US justice system Juvie is not set up to deal with serious cases hence tried as an adult doesn't always mean they go medieval on them but probably will.
Rehab isn't actually part of the US approach.
The good news is this judge is retired and is a bank judge after this possibly no more and his ruling was kicked out.
Rehab isn't actually part of the US approach.
The good news is this judge is retired and is a bank judge after this possibly no more and his ruling was kicked out.
8ball
1,200 lights
Couple of quick questions:
JudithB - can you source that 1.7% stat - partly because it might help acceptance of the fact and partly because I’m finding it hard to see how you would work out such a thing (I’m guessing there must be a system of extrapolation from survey information). I’ve seen stories not that uncommonly where women talk about rape decades later and have never told anyone about it before.
existentialist - when I was in school in Haverfordwest in the late 80s we had a pretty structured programme which involved a whole bunch of stuff, including about consent, and also how to use condoms and discuss it with a possible partner etc. There was a “parent opt-out” (which was barely taken up). From experiences of others on here it seems like maybe that was a pilot or something- any idea what happened to it?
JudithB - can you source that 1.7% stat - partly because it might help acceptance of the fact and partly because I’m finding it hard to see how you would work out such a thing (I’m guessing there must be a system of extrapolation from survey information). I’ve seen stories not that uncommonly where women talk about rape decades later and have never told anyone about it before.
existentialist - when I was in school in Haverfordwest in the late 80s we had a pretty structured programme which involved a whole bunch of stuff, including about consent, and also how to use condoms and discuss it with a possible partner etc. There was a “parent opt-out” (which was barely taken up). From experiences of others on here it seems like maybe that was a pilot or something- any idea what happened to it?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
If you care to go over to the male experiences of patriarchy thread you’ll see posts elucidating my disbelief at the shock you refer to. I’m already there.
My post was a brief attempt to make Judith see it is too simplistic to say “you’re a man, you know rapists, stop being uncomfortable and do something about it”.
My point was, although the patriarchy plays a role in this, it isn’t a problem sorted by male individual solutions. It isn’t my fault, as a man, that rape convictions are disgustingly low. There are structural agencies to overcome which have more power than individual thought and action.
So I introduced paedophilia as a similar scenario, one that doesn’t affect women in the same way as rape, though for sure one that is carried out mainly by men. Individually, chances are, men and women, we all know a paedophile. Following Judith’s logic, I asked “what’s your solution?”.
I don’t expect her to have one. Because it’s not about individuals uncomfortableness magically pulling a solution out of a hat. It’s a societal, structural based answer we’re looking for. Not one that says “you’re this sex class, do something about it”.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
She shouldn’t have to. The stat is not far off the mark and is at the least symbolic of the ridiculously low number of men who are convicted of actual rapes. It doesn’t need to be questioned or belittled by anyone saying it was worked out statistically wrong.
Many women get raped, not many men get convicted for it. That’s all you really need to know and accept.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh right
I know people have to go to bed, which is why I quoted not your 'I'm going to bed' post but your 'I've tried and look what happened' post.
8ball
1,200 lights
I must have forgotten the bit where I said anything about whether I thought it was “far off the mark”.
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