Teenager who filmed himself raping girl 'deserves leniency because he's from a good family’-US judge

[dessiato]

For those asking for stats, there's links here to statistics:
Statistics - Sexual Violence | Rape Crisis England & Wales

 

[dessiato]

She shouldn’t have to. The stat is not far off the mark and is at the least symbolic of the ridiculously low number of men who are convicted of actual rapes. It doesn’t need to be questioned or belittled by anyone saying it was worked out statistically wrong.

Many women get raped, not many men get convicted for it. That’s all you really need to know and accept.

Whilst I totally agree with your final statement, if an argument relies, even partially, on statistics there should be some backing up of those claims.

But, as you said, too many get raped, too few are convicted for it.

 

[JudithB]

Couple of quick questions:

JudithB - can you source that 1.7% stat - partly because it might help acceptance of the fact and partly because I’m finding it hard to see how you would work out such a thing (I’m guessing there must be a system of extrapolation from survey information). I’ve seen stories not that uncommonly where women talk about rape decades later and have never told anyone about it before.

existentialist - when I was in school in Haverfordwest in the late 80s we had a pretty structured programme which involved a whole bunch of stuff, including about consent, and also how to use condoms and discuss it with a possible partner etc. There was a “parent opt-out” (which was barely taken up). From experiences of others on here it seems like maybe that was a pilot or something- any idea what happened to it?

She shouldn’t have to. The stat is not far off the mark and is at the least symbolic of the ridiculously low number of men who are convicted of actual rapes. It doesn’t need to be questioned or belittled by anyone saying it was worked out statistically wrong.

Many women get raped, not many men get convicted for it. That’s all you really need to know and accept.

I don't mind. Here is a link to BBC Fact Checker Why are rape prosecutions falling?

I would be interested in learning more about the second question. It sounds intriguing and if there was any data surrounding it would be great to know where to find it. But it's probably lost forever.

If you care to go over to the male experiences of patriarchy thread you’ll see posts elucidating my disbelief at the shock you refer to. I’m already there.

My post was a brief attempt to make Judith see it is too simplistic to say “you’re a man, you know rapists, stop being uncomfortable and do something about it”.

My point was, although the patriarchy plays a role in this, it isn’t a problem sorted by male individual solutions. It isn’t my fault, as a man, that rape convictions are disgustingly low. There are structural agencies to overcome which have more power than individual thought and action.

So I introduced paedophilia as a similar scenario, one that doesn’t affect women in the same way as rape, though for sure one that is carried out mainly by men. Individually, chances are, men and women, we all know a paedophile. Following Judith’s logic, I asked “what’s your solution?”.

I don’t expect her to have one. Because it’s not about individuals uncomfortableness magically pulling a solution out of a hat. It’s a societal, structural based answer we’re looking for. Not one that says “you’re this sex class, do something about it”.

Women talk about being raped and sexually abused and would like to discuss it with the sex that is the main perpetrator but we do hit walls if we in any way try to talk about ourselves. There is a great Jessica Eaton blog that describes the reaction she receives when talking about the Men's centre she helped to set up compared to what happens when she talks about victims of sexual assault. I can't find it now. Her blogs are hard to navigate. I know a link has been posted by another poster on these boards too. And I cant find that link either.

The point is women get shut down trying to talk about their experience of male violence. Not by all men of course. But the loud (majority/minority) are stopping the conversations getting passed the reporting of issue and never appears to get to the reasons. I do not mean on these forums. I mean in wider society.

 

[weepiper]

I don't mind. Here is a link to BBC Fact Checker Why are rape prosecutions falling?

I would be interested in learning more about the second question. It sounds intriguing and if there was any data surrounding it would be great to know where to find it. But it's probably lost forever.



Women talk about being raped and sexually abused and would like to discuss it with the sex that is the main perpetrator but we do hit walls if we in any way try to talk about ourselves. There is a great Jessica Eaton blog that describes the reaction she receives when talking about the Men's centre she helped to set up compared to what happens when she talks about victims of sexual assault. I can't find it now. Her blogs are hard to navigate. I know a link has been posted by another poster on these boards too. And I cant find that link either.

The point is women get shut down trying to talk about their experience of male violence. Not by all men of course. But the loud (majority/minority) are stopping the conversations getting passed the reporting of issue and never appears to get to the reasons. I do not mean on these forums. I mean in wider society.

It's here

Stop asking me ‘what about men?’

 

[JudithB]

It's here

Stop asking me ‘what about men?’

Bookmarked! Thank you

 

[weltweit]

There was a 16 year old in my son's school who watched loads of hard core pornography, he was both entitled and demanding when it came to girls, nagging them to perform extreme acts he had seen on his screens. His classmates tried to warn girls who took an interest that he was bad news. My son was convinced he was a potential rapist.

This individual is someone I think of as a bad apple, he was brought up in the same environment as many others but turned out rather differently, there was very little his classmates could do apart from warning girls about him. On what society could do, I think easy access to hard core pornography when someone is going through their formative years should be of concern to us all.

 

[8ball]

On what society could do, I think easy access to hard core pornography when someone is going through their formative years should be of concern to us all.

"Hard core" pornography is a pretty quaint term these days, what with simply meaning the stuff involving two (or more) people having sex, as opposed to just eg. one semi-clad person with "soft core" porn.

Nowadays we're all a click or two away from things that I expect most people would never even imagine if left to themselves.
Not that there's any problem with diverse (consensual) sexual practices, but this seems like a conflict between adult freedoms and the sexual integrity of young people - that period of fumbling along and discovering your own preferences and kinks with a consenting partner is important.

 

[weltweit]

..
Nowadays we're all a click or two away from things that I expect most people would never even imagine if left to themselves.

I am sure most people would not imagine, but what about a 16 year old exposing themselves to such stuff day in day out for years. My feeling is it is likely to distort their view of sex, and lets face it a lot of what I would call hardcore is quite demeaning to women, and that was the sort of stuff he was apparently attracted to.

Not that there's any problem with diverse (consensual) sexual practices, but this seems like a conflict between adult freedoms and the sexual integrity of young people - that period of fumbling along and discovering your own preferences and kinks with a consenting partner is important.

I think consent is the crux of it, informed consent perhaps, nothing wrong with experimenting with a willing partner. Perhaps the new porn age rules in the UK will reduce teenagers exposure to it, I do think that could be a good thing.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I think consent is the crux of it, informed consent perhaps, nothing wrong with experimenting with a willing partner. Perhaps the new porn age rules in the UK will reduce teenagers exposure to it, I do think that could be a good thing.

Not a chance. It will be unworkable. They will be telling each other how to use a VPN on the first day if they don't already know how.

 

[likesfish]

Better off along with consent pointing out porn is about as realistic as call of duty is a realistic depection of war.

 

[weltweit]

Not a chance. It will be unworkable. They will be telling each other how to use a VPN on the first day if they don't already know how.

Yes, kids will get round it, II have no doubt.
But is that it, they will get around it so that is that?

 

[weltweit]

Better off along with consent pointing out porn is about as realistic as call of duty is a realistic depection of war.

I have had that conversation

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Yes, kids will get round it, II have no doubt.
But is that it, they will get around it so that is that?

It seems a futile way of going about it. I agree it's a shit situation. I mean I watched some porn as a teenager, but there was nothing like the volume and variety that there is available with just a few clicks. And I agree that probably isn't healthy. It needs to be tackled with education, although I confess I don't quite know how you go about that.

 

[8ball]

I am sure most people would not imagine, but what about a 16 year old exposing themselves to such stuff day in day out for years. My feeling is it is likely to distort their view of sex, and lets face it a lot of what I would call hardcore is quite demeaning to women, and that was the sort of stuff he was apparently attracted to.

Yeah, that's broadly my take on it. UnderAnOpenSky does make a reasonable point about the viability of some "solutions" that have been proposed.

 

[Yossarian]

There was a 16 year old in my son's school who watched loads of hard core pornography, he was both entitled and demanding when it came to girls, nagging them to perform extreme acts he had seen on his screens. His classmates tried to warn girls who took an interest that he was bad news. My son was convinced he was a potential rapist.

A 16-year-old? Unless teenage boys have radically changed since I was one 25 years ago, pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography, I don't even want to think about what I would have seen at that age if every kind of porn was available at the touch of a button on somebody's phone instead of being found in hedges or whatever.

 

[weltweit]

A 16-year-old? Unless teenage boys have radically changed since I was one 25 years ago, pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography, I don't even want to think about what I would have seen at that age if every kind of porn was available at the touch of a button on somebody's phone instead of being found in hedges or whatever.

Hi Yossarian, in my defence I think I said for a few years. Anyhow, you wrote "pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography" and my question would be, disturbing to who? to the boy themselves? or perhaps also to others?

I wonder if there has been an increase in rape or sexual harassment since so much pornography was so easily available? It isn't a leading question because I have no idea if there has been.

 

[Yossarian]

Hi Yossarian, in my defence I think I said for a few years. Anyhow, you wrote "pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography" and my question would be, disturbing to who? to the boy themselves? or perhaps also to others?

I wonder if there has been an increase in rape or sexual harassment since so much pornography was so easily available? It isn't a leading question because I have no idea if there has been.

Probably disturbing to both the teens involved and society at large, I think - I don't know if there's been a rise in sex crimes or not, but I think a lot of kids exposed to unlimited porn at a young age must be growing up with some very twisted ideas about what sex is supposed to be like.

 

[weltweit]

Interesting articles:

Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault

Does watching porn really turn people into violent criminals?

 

[Yossarian]

Interesting articles:

Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault

Does watching porn really turn people into violent criminals?

I think the effects are probably more insidious than a rise in sexual assaults directly linked to porn - it's more that teens with little experience have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality and think that women are playthings.

Some of those same teenagers assumed the portrayal of how sex and pleasure worked was largely accurate. That seems to be in keeping with a 2016 survey of 1,001 11-to-16-year-olds in Britain. Of the roughly half who had seen pornography, 53 percent of boys and 39 percent of girls said it was “realistic.”And in the recent Indiana University national survey, only one in six boys and one in four girls believed that women in online porn were not actually experiencing pleasure: As one suburban high school senior boy told me recently, “I’ve never seen a girl in porn who doesn’t look like she’s having a good time.”

What Teenagers Are Learning From Online Porn

 

[Sweet FA]

Interesting articles:

Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault

Does watching porn really turn people into violent criminals?

I haven't read both those articles yet but the first is written by 'San Francisco journalist Michael Castleman, M.A., has written about sexuality and sex research for 36 years. He has answered more than 10,000 sex questions for Playboy'

 

[8ball]

A 16-year-old? Unless teenage boys have radically changed since I was one 25 years ago, pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography...

I think where I grew up, the hedges must have been the type that produces unusually mild porn, on a pretty infrequent basis.

 

[weltweit]

I think the effects are probably more insidious than a rise in sexual assaults directly linked to porn - it's more that teens with little experience have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality and think that women are playthings.
..

Yes, could be the case indeed.

 

[weltweit]

I haven't read both those articles yet but the first is written by 'San Francisco journalist Michael Castleman, M.A., has written about sexuality and sex research for 36 years. He has answered more than 10,000 sex questions for Playboy'

Aha, I didn't catch that bit, oh dear

 

[equationgirl]

I read very recently (and will look for the link) that only 1% to 1.2% of rapes results in a conviction. I am hoping that is not from those who go to court. Those numbers must be higher?

ETA 1.7% are prosecuted. Only 1.7% of reported rapes prosecuted in England and Wales

I could not see how many of these end up in a conviction.

I know this is the UK but if you think you might have a 98.3% chance of getting away with it, is it any wonder young boys in any country act like this

There was an interesting thread on Urban a few years ago on this topic. There's almost more chance of winning a lottery prize than there is of a conviction and decent jail sentence for rape.

Do not get me started about actual sentences for rape...

 

[equationgirl]

Jessica Eaton (an article of hers was mentioned in one of the feminism threads)
Unfortunately hits the nail on the head again

Why I stopped encouraging women to disclose to police or doctors after rape

Very thought provoking and lots of useful stuff. Thanks for posting.

 

[existentialist]

Hi Yossarian, in my defence I think I said for a few years. Anyhow, you wrote "pretty much every 13-year-old boy out there has seen very disturbing amounts of pornography" and my question would be, disturbing to who? to the boy themselves? or perhaps also to others?

I wonder if there has been an increase in rape or sexual harassment since so much pornography was so easily available? It isn't a leading question because I have no idea if there has been.

Even if there has been, correlation is not causation - it could be, if that were the case, that a common factor was responsible for the increase in availability of porn and an increase in sexual violence, but that the two things had no causal relationship with each other.

My guess is that the 13 year old boys in question are not disturbed by the amount of pornography available to them - indeed, and worryingly, they may not be that disturbed about the nature of it, either. The level of disturbance is to others...and, even there, we need to try to separate out the "moral panic" from the well-founded concerns. And there are well-founded concerns, though my concern is that the moral panic issue tends to cloud the picture quite badly - it tends to create a notion that "porn must be stopped at any cost", rather then encouraging a more pragmatic (and feasible) solution to the issue.

You're not going to stop porn, not in a million (literally) years. The only way the "porn problem" can be addressed, in my view, is to ensure that there is a narrative around sex that is equally available to the people who need it, but which conveys more realistic, and safer, messages. I am sufficiently optimistic about the potential of adolescent human beings to believe that, given the right information, they will (largely) make the right choices. But if we try to continue to pretend that sex doesn't exist, and neither does porn, we're on a hiding to nothing, or worse.

 

[likesfish]

Problem with porn is its highly unrealistic and boys who watch a lot of it will have unrealistic expectations of what actual sex is like.

 

[Yossarian]

His judging days are over:

Judge who cited alleged rapist's 'good family' in court ruling agrees to step down

 

[equationgirl]

His judging days are over:

Judge who cited alleged rapist's 'good family' in court ruling agrees to step down

Good. He clearly exhibited bias.