SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Spanky Longhorn]

There was an SWP paper seller stood outside the main entrance to the Luddites memorial meeting at York guildhall today. I said to him "don't you feel ashamed of yourself selling that, considering all that's been going on" and he said "No, not at all" before mumbling something about how conference had decided and how it's all behind them.

He didn't sell a single copy, or even bother to come to the meeting itself and pay his respect to those who were hung.

I'm absolutely convinced that fuckers like that would still be selling their papers no matter what the leadership do. If it came out tomorrow that the entire CC were a peadophile ring masquerading as a political party then I don't think people that would give any more of a shit.

Sometimes I think you're a mentalist.

Sometimes you don't do much to challenge that view either.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Btw I've got about 10-15k left to write on this, let me know if you're interested in reading it

Don't listen to 'em - set of bastards! I'll read it, but like Delroy I'd enjoy it more if you could somehow shoehorn me into it

 

[Delroy Booth]

Can't respond properly, but that's a gross slur.

Well hang on if you're totally prepared to take the CC's word on an issue like this, and unreflectively just carry on flogging papers as if nothing happened, then what exactly would it take to get you to stop?

If their willing to accept all the shit that has gone on so far then what exactly would it take for them leave?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm absolutely convinced that fuckers like that would still be selling their papers no matter what the leadership do. If it came out tomorrow that the entire CC were a peadophile ring masquerading as a political party then I don't think people that would give any more of a shit.

No disrespect but that's complete and utter bollocks. What has happened (botched rape investigation etc) is bad enough but I know loads of people in the SWP, many of them the worst kind of hacks, and annoying and dogmatic as they might be I don't believe for a second that they'd turn a blind eye to something like that.

 

[Delroy Booth]

until a few weeks ago I didn't think they'd turn a blind eye to a botched rape investigation either, but here we are.

What exactly would it take for that sort of absolute mega-loyalist to question their allegience I wonder?

 

[Delroy Booth]

No disrespect but that's complete and utter bollocks. What has happened (botched rape investigation etc) is bad enough but I know loads of people in the SWP, many of them the worst kind of hacks, and annoying and dogmatic as they might be I don't believe for a second that they'd turn a blind eye to something like that.

Oh yeah and by the way I suspect that in reality if it did turn out the SWP CC was a load of nonces* there'd be no-one left defending them, at least I hope to god there wouldn't be, but this whole episode has confirmed to me that there's some really unhealthy cult-like tendencies in that party, and that because they're the "proletarian leadership" or whatever that they can pretty much do whatever the fuck they want in the eyes of some.

Fucks sake there's people in the CPGB-ML who defend North Korea and walk around at demo's with Stalin banners, some people can justify defending all that, as inhumae and inexplicable as it might be to me or you. So how far will people with that mentality go?

* probably a bad choice of hypothetical action on reflection, lets say one of the CC killed someone or something. Would they still carry on selling papers do you think?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Depend who they killed I suppose

 

[cesare]

Sometimes I think you're a mentalist.

Sometimes you don't do much to challenge that view either.

Don't diss the mentalists, maaaaan

 

[Delroy Booth]

Depend who they killed I suppose

Douglas Murray?

 

[barney_pig]

The remnants of the WRP still worship the rape toad Healy. The spartacists defend paedophilia. The ICP is bankrolled by union busting asset strippers. Convince some comrades that it is a attack on the party, and there are people who will still stay loyal whatever happens. There is nothing, it seems, Galloway can do that puts off some people.

 

[frogwoman]

Don't diss the mentalists, maaaaan

check your sanity privilege

 

[two sheds]

Fucks sake there's people in the CPGB-ML who defend North Korea and walk around at demo's with Stalin banners

Maoists confuse me, too. Why would you choose politics where your second statement on meeting someone has to be "No, I don't really support killing 50 million people, but let me outline some of the points he made on political philosophy ...'

 

[frogwoman]

The remnants of the WRP still worship the rape toad Healy. The spartacists defend paedophilia. The ICP is bankrolled by union busting asset strippers. Convince some comrades that it is a attack on the party, and there are people who will still stay loyal whatever happens. There is nothing, it seems, Galloway can do that puts off some people.

Which one is the ICP? the only union buster i can think of is the one in charge of the healyite sect that runs the WSWS website

 

[Delroy Booth]

 

[Delroy Booth]

The remnants of the WRP still worship the rape toad Healy. The spartacists defend paedophilia. The ICP is bankrolled by union busting asset strippers. Convince some comrades that it is a attack on the party, and there are people who will still stay loyal whatever happens. There is nothing, it seems, Galloway can do that puts off some people.

Exactly. People might jump down my throat coz I perhaps picked an example of something so outlandish and vile that even thinking that any individual could turn a blind eye to it is a gross slur, but there's people out there to this day who defend Gerry Healy to the hilt. There's people who'll defend mass murder because their particular sect requires it of them. Even in cases where something truly awful has gone on, you can pretty much guarentee there'll be some be some brainwashed remnant of hardcore loyalists to the Party who'd be able to justify the most heinous acts. Maybe the vast bulk of people would leave, but there's some who just don't give a fuck.

That's the impression I got from that paper seller today - he knew about the internal struggles going on and the rape accusations, but just couldn't give a fuck either way. I tried being fairly polite to him at first to see what he had to say on the topic, but he was just totally belligerent, refused to even countenence that the SWP leadership might've done something wrong in any way. Blew my mind. I'd like to think that the vast majority of SWP members aren't quite so slavishly loyal and uncritical, I suspect they're probably not, but some of 'em most certainly are.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

While DB might not have used the best example I think he has a point. It is scary the way certain people can defend almost anything given the right circumstances. I think that is a real challenge for democratic centralism.

At my local anti-cuts group this week the SWP turned up, which they often don't do as they don't control it. I have never seem them sell the socialist worker there, but this time they were, holding it front of them at the end of the meeting like a badge of honour. Now I know the central committee would have said come out all guns blazing to show we are still going strong, but in the circumstances wouldn't any person with any decent values think that they should have some humility, at least until this runs its course. The SWP are standing against people I know in our AGM. In fact they've chosen to stand against other left candidates, instead of right candidates. It does make me pretty sick that our members won't know that they are being asked to vote for someone who represents an organisation that has carried out this kind of thing. Anyone in the SWP who doesn't realise that carrying out a rape investigation with a panel of seven people who were mates of the accused has something seriously wrong with them.

 

[mutley]

There is a whole lot going on inside the swp that isn't visible. Some of it will probably never be visible.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

There is a whole lot going on inside the swp that isn't visible. Some of it will probably never be visible.

That's part of the problem, and part of the problem with a certain view of democratic centralism. Something very wrong has happened, yet an organisation which says it wants to lead the working class thinks that no-one else has any right to know what has gone on. It really is wrong that SWP members are standing for union positions all around the country with union members having no idea about who or what they are voting for in the light of what has happened. The same goes for anti-cuts groups, community groups etc

Our branch members should know that if they are voting for SWP members then they are people who aren't putting up with what has gone one, yet we have no idea. I have no idea if the person I am being asked to vote for has taken a principled stand or not. As it happens I wouldn't vote for them as they have taken the totally sectarian position of standing against very good socialist candidates rather than right wing candidates. But the principle is still the same.

On a certain level, given what has happened, they make me sick.

 

[brogdale]

I'd like to think that the vast majority of SWP members aren't quite so slavishly loyal and uncritical, I suspect they're probably not, but some of 'em most certainly are.

Yup, but by definition of their membership, they are a self-selecting cohort of people who feel comfortable in an organisation which reproduces the authoritarian relationships of power that are dominant in capitalism. Crossing that rubicon who knows what they might be prepared to accept?

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

The main point for me is that how can SWP members expect people to vote for them in unions or community groups if they haven't told us what their view is on this? How can they expect members to decide whether we should vote for them if we don't even know if they have backed the totally unacceptable behaviour of the SWP central committee?

 

[brogdale]

The main point for me is that how can SWP members expect people to vote for them in unions or community groups if they haven't told us what their view is on this? How can they expect members to decide whether we should vote for them if we don't even know if they have backed the totally unacceptable behaviour of the SWP central committee?

But in a Leninist DC party their view counts for nothing anyway. All you need to know about them is that they are members of a party in which the conference has backed the CC....like they always have to.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

But in a Leninist DC party their view counts for nothing anyway. All you need to know about them is that they are members of a party in which the conference has backed the CC....like they always have to.

I don't think that is true. Lots of revolutionary socialist organisations that have or have had democratic centralism have allowed members to take a public position against the leadership. That was the irony of the Socialist Party quote earlier in the thread that said that the bolsheviks rarely had permanent factions, while omitting the fact that the bolsheviks were themselves a permanent faction!

But regardless of that if I'm asked to vote for someone to lead our branch I want to know if they are happy with what the central committee in the SWP has done. What do SWP members on here suggest should be done? Are they ok with our union branch members being kept totally in the dark?

 

[discokermit]

Yup, but by definition of their membership, they are a self-selecting cohort of people who feel comfortable in an organisation which reproduces the authoritarian relationships of power that are dominant in capitalism. Crossing that rubicon who knows what they might be prepared to accept?

this is just gibberish.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

this is just gibberish.

But what about the points I'm making? Are you in the SWP?

 

[discokermit]

But what about the points I'm making? Are you in the SWP?

bit shrill and over the top.

no.

 

[brogdale]

this is just gibberish.

Oh really?
You think that the relationship between a party member and the CC in the centralised command structure of Leninist organisations is any different from that of a worker and the owner(s) of the capital?

 

[Red Cat]

You've got him there, brogdale!

 

[discokermit]

submit! submit! have mercy guvnor!

 

[discokermit]

Oh really?
You think that the relationship between a party member and the CC in the centralised command structure of Leninist organisations is any different from that of a worker and the owner(s) of the capital?

so, everyone who works has crossed the very same rubicon?

 

[killer b]

I cross that damn rubicon every morning, 9 am sharp.