One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Maybe it is shrill, but don't you think trade union members deserve to know who they are voting for and what they stand for?
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Everyone who works does so to survive. Everyone who joins a avowedly leninist organisation subjects themselves to another level of control and use. The labour movement was always meant to be democratic.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Of course it fucking is you silly sod.
Even if we assume you're right (and to an extent I think you are, though you're making massive student annakissed style exaggerations) in that the CC has such power over its members, that doesn't mean it's the same relationship as that between worker and capitalist. The relationship between wage labour and capital is a very specific one. It's not the same as that between a serf and a feudal lord and it's not the same as that between a comrade paper seller and a comrade delta.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
I cross that damn rubicon every morning, 9 am sharp.
I got a rubicon for Christmas once, never did manage to get the colours to match on all sides of the cube
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
No comparison. Thanks for posing the question like this, because it makes the difference clear. A worker generally accepts commands that are exploitative and bullying because they fear for their job and not because they are so loyal to the company they will put up with this. A member of a political party (of any sort, right or left) is there by choice and unless their material interests are affected (e.g. they are being paid by the party) can - and do - walk away much more easily. Just because someone joins a 'Leninist' party doesn't mean they surrender their personality. Having said that, it is a fascinating and disturbing and more subtle question to ask how does it arise that someone who - let's say - genuinely sets out to fight for complete freedom and emancipation ends up defending the indefensible.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
I got a rubicon for Christmas once, never did manage to get the colours to match on all sides of the cube
That's because you work for The Man.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Well yes, but...
when it comes to membership of the SWP we are dealing with folk who have happily signed up to an organistion which uncannily mirrors the control structure of capital controlled as it is by a self-perpetuating, unaccountable oligarchy of paid officials.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Well yes, but...
when it comes to membership of the SWP we are dealing with folk who have happily signed up to an organistion which uncannily mirrors the control structure of capital controlled as it is by a self-perpetuating, unaccountable oligarchy of paid officials.
Again, no it doesn't. Not at all. I believe members of the CC earn in the region of £15k a year. That doesn't sound much like oligarchy to me.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The party member has much effective democratic control over policy/practice as does the average worker over corporate governance.
And Oligarchy relates to the restricted number of those wielding power in a social structure (party), not necessarily or just what formal remuneration they derive from that power.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
While I don't agree with brogdale, it's clearly not just about the money. It's about the social life, ego boost, fact that if they stopped they would find it very hard to get a job etc Often these sad sacks would have no status whatsoever in real life.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
callinicos is a professor.
love detective
there's no love too small
no status whatsoever in real life
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
You have picked out possibily the only person who has a job on the central committee. Also I'm not saying it affects everyone in the same way, I'm just saying that clearly money is not the only incentive.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
SpineyNorman
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Right - so you've just invented your own definition for the term 'oligarchy' then. And yes, they do have more power in their role as member than workers do in their roles as workers. They can, if they so wish, do fuck all and there's no way, beyond grunts of disaproval, that they can be effectively sanctioned - I know this because I did it myself when I was a member. Second, there are formal democratic structures that don't exist in the workplace. The membership can throw the CC out - it would be that easy if enough of them decided to do so. The control the CC have over the membership of the SWP is dependent on consent. Third, you can just leave the SWP if you want and beyond disaproval from other members you've got nothing to worry about in doing so.
It's just not a good comparison at all.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Of course - and that's why they're so desperate to cling on to power.
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
Not the way to assist those wanting change in the SWP, in my opinion. I haven't thought this through, so don't start calling me a bollix but ... It seems to me if a campaigning group on the left, especially one concerned with women's rights, asked the SWP to leave the campaign until they had changed their approach to this rape allegation, that would be one thing. But to invite a wide public to condemn the SWP, well, it opens the door to the right to de-recognise SWSS groups. And if I was in Essex SWSS and pushing for a recall conference, I might now find this harder due to other members becoming angry at those circulating the petition.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
At heart, it is.
At work you're told what to do by 'leaders'. Same as being in a Leninist outfit.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
possibly. though it does show the concerns of one_stop_shop aren't limited to him/her.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
It's not the same thing either. There are immediate elections in union branches as many have their AGMs this time of year. Is it really fair if members don't know who they are voting for on a serious question? The vast majority of members in my branch wouldn't know who the SWP are but I suspect they'd be disgusted at the details of the rape investigation.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
if you get any more shrill, only dogs will hear you.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
I've got a whistle and plarcard ready. And I've starred out the swear words.
SpineyNorman
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Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
No comparison between being in a job and being in a Leninist outfit. Workers get something from being in a job.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
sounds like the standard definition of an oligarchy.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Until after the revolution at least.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
The admin of the UAF page on FB caused a bit of a stir by explicitly mentioning how well Martin was received at the demo in Greece when he spoke. As you'd expect the comments then all revolved around one individual rather than the success of the event. This isn't really sustainable. Even people who haven't got an axe to grind with the SWP cc can see that acting as if Martin can just carry on as normal is dotty. At the very least UAF needs to explain its position rather than just go 'what you all on about?' which isn't convincing anyone. This is damaging the ability of UAF to function properly :-(
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Quite true and something Lenin for one was totally aware of. Hence his argument that in a workers state workers still need to defend themselves through their TUs against their own state. And his warning that history knows all types of bureaucratic transformations.
But this side of a revolution the relationship between a cc member and a rank and file member is closer to that between a worker and their union officials. How healthy the dem cent is determines if it's closer to the relationship with a shop steward or an untouchable union gen sec.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That's a very good way of describing it.
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