SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Nigel Irritable]

This is damaging the ability of UAF to function properly :-(

It's insanity. I thought they'd have more sense then that.

 

[Athos]

Quite true and something Lenin for one was totally aware of. Hence his argument that in a workers state workers still need to defend themselves through their TUs against their own state. And his warning that history knows all types of bureaucratic transformations.

But this side of a revolution the relationship between a cc member and a rank and file member is closer to that between a worker and their union officials. How healthy the dem cent is determines if it's closer to the relationship with a shop steward or an untouchable union gen sec.

More like the relationship between a worker and an employer who wants to keep that worker sweet whilst he's useful to the employer. But, as soon as there's a hint that he'll do anything anathema to the employer's interest, the mask will slip, and the true nature of the relationship becomes clear.

 

[cesare]

More like the relationship between a worker and an employer who wants to keep that worker sweet whilst he's useful to the employer. But, as soon as there's a hint that he'll do anything anathema to the employer's interest, the mask will slip, and the true nature of the relationship becomes clear.

That implies a labour power relationship though? Like a newsagent ...

 

[butchersapron]

Teacher and pupil.

 

[emanymton]

Masochist and Sadist.

 

[butchersapron]

Turner and Hooch.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

More like the relationship between a worker and an employer who wants to keep that worker sweet whilst he's useful to the employer. But, as soon as there's a hint that he'll do anything anathema to the employer's interest, the mask will slip, and the true nature of the relationship becomes clear.

Unless you see the swp as a ruling class conspiracy and part of capitalist relations of exploitation that analogy is useless. Granted I'm sure plenty on here do but for the rest of us this is a debate between people on the same side against the bosses discussing how best our side can organise. It's funny how demonising of the swp can sound so like old school Tanky shit about Trotsky-Fascism :-(

 

[emanymton]

Lions and Donkeys.

 

[brogdale]

No, you're really not. You're asked to do stuff and can refuse without any comeback.

Why join the party then?
What was the point?

 

[Athos]

Unless you see the swp as a ruling class conspiracy and part of capitalist relations of exploitation that analogy is useless. Granted I'm sure plenty on here do but for the rest of us this is a debate between people on the same side against the bosses discussing how best our side can organise. It's funny how demonising of the swp can sound so like old school Tanky shit about Trotsky-Fascism :-(

How we organise now will have consequences now and later.

As well as being doubtful of the efficacy of such organisation in the immediate term, I see a post-revolution Leninist elite in which the workers' power has become concentrated, and which is willing to wield that power against workers (for its own interest, but under the guise of defending the gains of the revolution) as a ruling class with the motive and opportunity to be every bit as anathema to workers' interests as capitalism.

 

[Random]

Unless you see the swp as a ruling class conspiracy and part of capitalist relations of exploitation that analogy is useless.

If the SWP, or any other party or group, is paying for someone's labour then of course that is part of "capitalist relations", how can it not be?

 

[cesare]

If the SWP, or any other party or group, is paying for someone's labour then of course that is part of "capitalist relations", how can it not be?

That's (one of the reasons) why I asked earlier if the CC etc are waged.

 

[brogdale]

I see a post-revolution Leninist elite in which the workers' power has become concentrated, and which is willing to wield that power against workers (for its own interest, but under the guise of defending the gains of the revolution) as a ruling class with the motive and opportunity to be every bit as anathema to workers' interests as capitalism.

Quite.
The prefigurative clues are there for all to see.
It seems curious for an organisation to simultaneously recognise the degenerate nature of previous workers' states and adopt similar pre-revolutionary structures and processes.

 

[two sheds]

How we organise now will have consequences now and later.

As well as being doubtful of the efficacy of such organisation in the immediate term, I see a post-revolution Leninist elite in which the workers' power has become concentrated, and which is willing to wield that power against workers (for its own interest, but under the guise of defending the gains of the revolution) as a ruling class with the motive and opportunity to be every bit as anathema to workers' interests as capitalism.

A bit like Soviet Russia, perhaps?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

If the SWP, or any other party or group, is paying for someone's labour then of course that is part of "capitalist relations", how can it not be?

Jesus wept. So TUs are capitalist bodies too then. By your logic Martin is an exploited worker who if the dc had removed him should fight against wrongful dismissal. Do TUS or left parties exist primarily to extract surplus value from their employees or to fight for workers rights (however badly!)? If the asnwer is the former then we're all fucked.

 

[Athos]

Quite.
The prefigurative clues are there for all to see.
It seems curious for an organisation to simultaneously recognise the degenerate nature of previous workers' states and adopting their pre-revolutionary structures and processes.

Only curious if you overlook their own motives.

 

[brogdale]

Only curious if you overlook their own motives.

True.
Scratch 'curious' for 'completely contradictory'.

 

[cesare]

Jesus wept. So TUs are capitalist bodies too then. By your logic Martin is an exploited worker who if the dc had removed him should fight against wrongful dismissal. Do TUS or left parties exist primarily to extract surplus value from their employees or to fight for workers rights (however badly!)? If the asnwer is the former then we're all fucked.

If he's an employee, it's entirely possible to bring an employment claim. Happens to the TUs quite a lot.

 

[Random]

Jesus wept. So TUs are capitalist bodies too then. By your logic Martin is an exploited worker who if the dc had removed him should fight against wrongful dismissal. Do TUS or left parties exist primarily to extract surplus value from their employees or to fight for workers rights (however badly!)? If the asnwer is the former then we're all fucked.

And yet it moves

Edit, funny how you sound like a tanky defending against state cap

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Jesus wept. So TUs are capitalist bodies too then. By your logic Martin is an exploited worker who if the dc had removed him should fight against wrongful dismissal. Do TUS or left parties exist primarily to extract surplus value from their employees or to fight for workers rights (however badly!)? If the asnwer is the former then we're all fucked.

Depends on the situation and what the trade union is doing. Most people who work for a trade union are members of another trade union and there have been disputes before. Didn't Lenin describe trade union leaders as the labour lieutentant's of capital or something (as my branch secretary said though most of the current bunch wouldn't even make seargent let alone lieutenant)?

As it happens with trade unions like UNISON who employ an army of very well paid officials (mostly unelected) I think the trade union has partly become a vehicle to keep the well paid bureaucrats in their standard of living.

I'd also think that workers in call centres who work for trade unions are obviously exploited.

In terms of the SWP my mate told me they employ somewhere between 50 and 100 full timers. Obviously for them to speak out does cause a totally different power relationship as they will lose their job. If they have been in the post a long time, especially at a time of high employment, that pressure must be substantial.

However I agree with your analysis earlier for normal members of a political organsiation. And agree that the worse it is, the more it is like an unaccoutable general secretary, and would say that is the case in the SWP. I remember talking to one SWP full timer, and he was discussing how they behave in a bullying way (was talking about Smith and Bambery in particular). His answer was that it was ok because they were elected, and he wasn't as a full timer, so they could speak to him how they liked!! (actually the issue that the SWP, SP and all the other groups don't elect their fulltimers I think is a real issue).

 

[SpineyNorman]

sounds like the standard definition of an oligarchy.

Not really - oligarchy isn't a very useful concept if it can be applied to regimes that depend on consent to the degree they do.

 

[The39thStep]

While DB might not have used the best example I think he has a point. It is scary the way certain people can defend almost anything given the right circumstances. I think that is a real challenge for democratic centralism.

At my local anti-cuts group this week the SWP turned up, which they often don't do as they don't control it. I have never seem them sell the socialist worker there, but this time they were, holding it front of them at the end of the meeting like a badge of honour. Now I know the central committee would have said come out all guns blazing to show we are still going strong, but in the circumstances wouldn't any person with any decent values think that they should have some humility, at least until this runs its course. The SWP are standing against people I know in our AGM. In fact they've chosen to stand against other left candidates, instead of right candidates. It does make me pretty sick that our members won't know that they are being asked to vote for someone who represents an organisation that has carried out this kind of thing. Anyone in the SWP who doesn't realise that carrying out a rape investigation with a panel of seven people who were mates of the accused has something seriously wrong with them.

I am afraid that isn't limited to democratic centralism, look at the nuttier anarchist/animal libbers scene

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I am afraid that isn't limited to democratic centralism, look at the nuttier anarchist/animal libbers scene

I agree but think that some forms of democratic centralism can make it worse.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Edit, funny how you sound like a tanky defending against state cap

Not at all. A workers state would have state capitalist relations of production for a period. That's part of the transition. But we really are getting into a different thread now

 

[SpineyNorman]

Until after the revolution at least.

Which is something I wouldn't worry about too much if I were you, not with the SWP (or any other British left group).

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Seymour's latest plea to the members: http://www.leninology.com/2013/01/more-dispatches-from-real-world.html

"we are rapidly becoming toxic"

 

[Random]

Not really - oligarchy isn't a very useful concept if it can be applied to regimes that depend on consent to the degree they do.

Whether or not the SWP match that earlier description is one thing. But rule by a small group of powerful people is an oligarchy. There are degrees. It is arguable that the USA is ssomething of an oligarchy, til ex

 

[SpineyNorman]

Why join the party then?
What was the point?

I ask myself that every day

 

[The39thStep]

I agree but think that some forms of democratic centralism can make it worse.

Anything can make it worse. My view is that the rubicon for most is 'is their life after the party' syndrome. Most political organisations especially those based on activism provide more than just a purely political environment. That is the reinforcement .

 

[Random]

Not at all. A workers state would have state capitalist relations of production for a period. That's part of the transition. But we really are getting into a different thread now

You seem to be having a knee jerk reaction to being told that capitalist relations exist in the SWP. But theyeexist, whether you like it or not. This isn't the ame as saying that the SWP are a party that campaigns in favour of capitalist relations, although the two issues are related.