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SWP expulsions and squabbles

And more than likely, disagreeing with the party line be ostracised, marginalised, suspended and expelled afterwards.
And more than likely, disagreeing with the party line be ostracised, marginalised, suspended and expelled afterwards.
Out of curiosity which conference was this 1981, 1982,1983 0r another one?
The SWP a few years ago were talking about re-establishing rank and file groups, although I can't see this as being possible in the current situation, maybe this was a response to up swing in industrial and white collar trade union disputes with 'Corbynism'.

Do you think RS21's criticism(s) of SWP and change in direction towards identity, race and womens groups/blocs is a step in the right direction or could lead to marginalisation and/or other problems?
 
And more than likely, disagreeing with the party line be ostracised, marginalised, suspended and expelled afterwards.
Out of curiosity which conference was this 1981, 1982,1983 0r another one?
I never experienced that tbh. My experience was that normally the party leadership got its way, that the party would soften send CC members to branches where they hadn't won the argument and that full timers would work hard to try and get members to toe the line. However, I opposed the expulsion of 'the squadists', closure of rank and file groups, and on tactics in strikes and disputes often argue successfully against or to modify the full timers line and don't get me started on key issues like the ending of the beer break.

Democratic Centralism to me was always about the organised mistrust of the centre .
 
Chingari was the SWP Asian paper.

Splits and Fusions has some copies of that and Flame:
Thanks
Dave Renton gave me a copy of Flame a few years ago before I fell out with him!
I put it up on U75 a while back.
 
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Can you give me some examples?
Not off the top of my head!
However, SWP and RS21 members have claimed that analysis that Flame & WV would lead to careerism were justified.
I think that there was an AWL talk online where this was mentioned.

With regards to Rank & File group; those that left SWP, did they link up with anyone else; Jim Higgins became involved with Workers Fight earlier.

Was any of this inter-linked with Big Flame?
 
Not off the top of my head!
However, SWP and RS21 members have claimed that analysis that Flame & WV would lead to careerism were justified.
I think that there was an AWL talk online where this was mentioned.

With regards to Rank & File group; those that left SWP, did they link up with anyone else; Jim Higgins became involved with Workers Fight earlier.

Was any of this inter-linked with Big Flame?
What's the point of saying that 'quite a few drifted to the GLC' then if you cant give any examples? The GLC created a number of jobs/roles to tackle racism or discrimination, there were members of the SWP who worked for the GLC and other councils in some of these positions. It doesn't mean that they were aligned with Ken Livingston and the Labour left.

The discussion about Flame was a very simple one , the proposal from two of its members was that it effectively should become the SWPs black revolutionary organisation ie the SWP builds the class struggle, Flame builds the race struggle. That wasnt an argument about careerism it was an argument about how to recruit black people to revolutionary organisation. I don't recall it being a proposal that was supported by the majority of black members tbh. The members who I knew who wrote for both papers stayed with the SWP over that issue.

I think some form of rank-and-file building worker group continued after the official group closed . The argument wasn't about not organising in trade unions or not going out on strike or forming activists groups during strikes or to get industrial action it was about whether conditions still existed for permanent rank-and-file groups inside work places and whether recruiting to the party or party periphery was the better option.

No , none of this is linked with Big Flame.
 
What's the point of saying that 'quite a few drifted to the GLC' then if you cant give any examples? The GLC created a number of jobs/roles to tackle racism or discrimination, there were members of the SWP who worked for the GLC and other councils in some of these positions. It doesn't mean that they were aligned with Ken Livingston and the Labour left.

The discussion about Flame was a very simple one , the proposal from two of its members was that it effectively should become the SWPs black revolutionary organisation ie the SWP builds the class struggle, Flame builds the race struggle. That wasnt an argument about careerism it was an argument about how to recruit black people to revolutionary organisation. I don't recall it being a proposal that was supported by the majority of black members tbh. The members who I knew who wrote for both papers stayed with the SWP over that issue.

I think some form of rank-and-file building worker group continued after the official group closed . The argument wasn't about not organising in trade unions or not going out on strike or forming activists groups during strikes or to get industrial action it was about whether conditions still existed for permanent rank-and-file groups inside work places and whether recruiting to the party or party periphery was the better option.

No , none of this is linked with Big Flame.
Thanks

Apologies if I gave the impression that I knew what happened to various individuals in and around Flame , WV etc.
I was interested in what your take on it was.
I think that some people where I was,Crawley, West Sussex, who bought and supported WV had some arguments with SWP and then got involved with local unemployment centre and womens' refuge.

A friend of mine who was in WRP claimed that when Flame came to town they tried to 'extort' money off of him.

Interesting what you said about the inter-relationship between SWP, GLC and Ken Livingstone.
From what I remember of Brighton branch of SWP, they were relatively supportive of winding up Flame & WV, I don't think that there was much dissent.
 
What stopping the downwardly mobile middle-class types and ‘other’ precarious workers alliance from trying adopting this woke pro- trans wing thing?
Your continued sneering about this is quite funny to me, because outside of the dinosaur left who are still trying to find the British working class in factories, it's widely recognised as an observable phenomenon which certain tendencies in the economy have made inevitable. Why do you think UVW had an architects' section (since moved to Unite), when architects basically never unionise? Also: they largely have.
 

A response from one of the women abused by Martin Smith

And one from RS21

 
She heard of the apology "not from the SWP, but from a friend who forwarded their public statement the day after it was released."

Shitbags.

"There is an insulting lack of sincerity in an apology that is made very publicly without making any attempt to contact either of the women, or indeed any of the people, involved who are owed an apology."

Absolutely.
 
Steps isn’t a sneerer, really. Not in my view.

More of an affectionate prodder with a keen sense of the ridiculous.
I'm not sure what is ridiculous about it?

Precarious workers and downwardly mobile middle class were very obviously the political force supporting Corbynisn, and it is a pretty good description of what the working class today is - service workers on short term and insecure contracts, and formerly middle class jobs that now barely pay a living wage, or - especially in London - people with what should be middle class jobs but who nevertheless live in poverty due to being priced out of housing and trapped in exploitative rental market.

I am curious to hear The39thStep 's reasoning as to exactly what is ridiculous about it. Does he imagine a working class of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners rather than one of nurses, hospitality workers and deliveroo drivers? Because only one of them is a reality in 2024 Britain.
 
I'm not sure what is ridiculous about it?

Precarious workers and downwardly mobile middle class were very obviously the political force supporting Corbynisn, and it is a pretty good description of what the working class today is - service workers on short term and insecure contracts, and formerly middle class jobs that now barely pay a living wage, or - especially in London - people with what should be middle class jobs but who nevertheless live in poverty due to being priced out of housing and trapped in exploitative rental market.

I am curious to hear The39thStep 's reasoning as to exactly what is ridiculous about it. Does he imagine a working class of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners rather than one of nurses, hospitality workers and deliveroo drivers? Because only one of them is a reality in 2024 Britain.

I think you're confused about what constitutes working class tbh.
There isn't a lot that comes under the heading of "formerly middle class jobs" that separates them out from the rest - they're probably working class and have always been working class jobs.
 
I'm not sure what is ridiculous about it?

Precarious workers and downwardly mobile middle class were very obviously the political force supporting Corbynisn, and it is a pretty good description of what the working class today is - service workers on short term and insecure contracts, and formerly middle class jobs that now barely pay a living wage, or - especially in London - people with what should be middle class jobs but who nevertheless live in poverty due to being priced out of housing and trapped in exploitative rental market.

I am curious to hear The39thStep 's reasoning as to exactly what is ridiculous about it. Does he imagine a working class of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners rather than one of nurses, hospitality workers and deliveroo drivers? Because only one of them is a reality in 2024 Britain.
I'll tell you what is ridiculous and that is an unfounded assertion that I think the working class is composed of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners . Where's your evidence of that ?

You might also want to re-read Fozzie Bear post to understand how he is using the phrase ridiculous.
 
I'll tell you what is ridiculous and that is an unfounded assertion that I think the working class is composed of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners . Where's your evidence of that ?

You might also want to re-read Fozzie Bear post to understand how he is using the phrase ridiculous.
No evidence - but I'm baffled by what you think is so ridiculous about that phrase, and short of you actually explaining what you find ridiculous about it, I can only guess it is something like an outdated idea of what the working class looks like.
 
No evidence - but I'm baffled by what you think is so ridiculous about that phrase, and short of you actually explaining what you find ridiculous about it, I can only guess it is something like an outdated idea of what the working class looks like.
Rather than guess why don't you go and look at the thread where this alliance between the precarious workers and the downward middle class was touted as the way forward? Also, .try and work out why Fozzie Bear opined that I had a keen sense of the ridiculous. Hint, there may be a bigger picture than just the sentence you are focussing on.
 
I think you're confused about what constitutes working class tbh.
There isn't a lot that comes under the heading of "formerly middle class jobs" that separates them out from the rest - they're probably working class and have always been working class jobs.

I don't think I am confused, but people use different definitions of working class and middle class and I'm unsure which one is being used here. Jobs that require university degrees are middle class jobs.

Aside from definitions of jobs as worming class or middle class, the middle class is indeed shrinking so people of middle class parents becoming working class is more common now than it was throughout the 20th Century which generally saw upwards mobility. Professionals being priced out of the property market is also a fairly recent phenomenon. Much of the right wing media smearing of Corbyn supporters being a "London elite" was in part projection but also based on oldsters failing to understand that a 20 something or even 30 something university graduate working an ostensibly professional job in London might still be living in cramped and unhygienic conditions and struggling to make their paycheque last till the end of the month, nevermind saving.

Political polling and anecdotal experience backs up that support for Corbyn was higher from university graduates, private renters, and people in precarious work, so "downwardly mobile middle class and precarious workers" is an accurate description of this constituency imo.
 
Rather than guess why don't you go and look at the thread where this alliance between the precarious workers and the downward middle class was touted as the way forward? Also, .try and work out why Fozzie Bear opined that I had a keen sense of the ridiculous. Hint, there may be a bigger picture than just the sentence you are focussing on.
I don't know which thread that is.
 
I don't think I am confused, but people use different definitions of working class and middle class and I'm unsure which one is being used here. Jobs that require university degrees are middle class jobs.

Aside from definitions of jobs as worming class or middle class, the middle class is indeed shrinking so people of middle class parents becoming working class is more common now than it was throughout the 20th Century which generally saw upwards mobility. Professionals being priced out of the property market is also a fairly recent phenomenon. Much of the right wing media smearing of Corbyn supporters being a "London elite" was in part projection but also based on oldsters failing to understand that a 20 something or even 30 something university graduate working an ostensibly professional job in London might still be living in cramped and unhygienic conditions and struggling to make their paycheque last till the end of the month, nevermind saving.

Political polling and anecdotal experience backs up that support for Corbyn was higher from university graduates, private renters, and people in precarious work, so "downwardly mobile middle class and precarious workers" is an accurate description of this constituency imo.
i have only had a couple of jobs that specify 'must have a degree'. one of them was archives assistant. fuck knows why they put it in the job specification, everything i learned about local history and archives i got on the job. and in many ways it was similar to library assistant (in academic libraries), for which no degree is required: although given the great number of applicants for such posts it's now an informal requirement.
 
I'm not sure what is ridiculous about it?

Precarious workers and downwardly mobile middle class were very obviously the political force supporting Corbynisn, and it is a pretty good description of what the working class today is - service workers on short term and insecure contracts, and formerly middle class jobs that now barely pay a living wage, or - especially in London - people with what should be middle class jobs but who nevertheless live in poverty due to being priced out of housing and trapped in exploitative rental market.

I am curious to hear The39thStep 's reasoning as to exactly what is ridiculous about it. Does he imagine a working class of sheet metal workers, dockers and miners rather than one of nurses, hospitality workers and deliveroo drivers? Because only one of them is a reality in 2024 Britain.
you're confused. clearly. as in one post you state jobs that require a degree are middle class jobs. and here you say nurses are working class. and i suppose you know that nurses require a degree. there's some cognitive dissonance in your posts.
 
I don't think I am confused, but people use different definitions of working class and middle class and I'm unsure which one is being used here. Jobs that require university degrees are middle class jobs.

Aside from definitions of jobs as worming class or middle class, the middle class is indeed shrinking so people of middle class parents becoming working class is more common now than it was throughout the 20th Century which generally saw upwards mobility. Professionals being priced out of the property market is also a fairly recent phenomenon. Much of the right wing media smearing of Corbyn supporters being a "London elite" was in part projection but also based on oldsters failing to understand that a 20 something or even 30 something university graduate working an ostensibly professional job in London might still be living in cramped and unhygienic conditions and struggling to make their paycheque last till the end of the month, nevermind saving.

Political polling and anecdotal experience backs up that support for Corbyn was higher from university graduates, private renters, and people in precarious work, so "downwardly mobile middle class and precarious workers" is an accurate description of this constituency imo.
Sorry, but the idea that nurses, teachers are middle class (both require degrees) is seriously out dated mate.
The same can be said of engineers etc.
 
Sorry, but the idea that nurses, teachers are middle class (both require degrees) is seriously out dated mate.
The same can be said of engineers etc.
That's kind of my point, nurses and teachers could be some examples of downwardly mobile middle class - professions formerly considered solid middle class but now with significantly poorer conditions and status.

Also Pickman's model
 
That's kind of my point, nurses and teachers could be some examples of downwardly mobile middle class - professions formerly considered solid middle class but now with significantly poorer conditions and status.

Also Pickman's model
this doesn't address your cognitive dissonance. and when were nurses solidly middle class? obvs they are now if you're going with your jobs that need a degree bit. but before? and teachers? tbh it sounds like you're addressing us through your posterior.
 
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