SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

TBH
I would have thought that the direction that some leading members of, 'what was' IWCA would have found a home in Workers Party Of (Great) Britain?
For example being sympathetic towards some Spiked journalists, Christopher Hitchens, crtitical of mass immigration and multiculturalism.
Slogans such as, 'For The Working Class Whether Left Or Right.' etc.

The ex members I’m in touch with generally have a position of Galloway is right on somethings and wrong on a lots of others .

 

[Nigel]

The ex members I’m in touch with generally have a position of Galloway is right on somethings and wrong on a lots of others .

That sounds about right!

 

[Nigel]

Interesting that on. 'Comrade Delta's Facebook account, the backdrop is portraying the relationship between Charlie Windsor & Jimmy Saville!
Could this be a projection of unconscious guilt?

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[Lurdan]

Interesting that on. 'Comrade Delta's Facebook account, the backdrop is portraying the relationship between Charlie Windsor & Jimmy Saville!
Could this be a projection of unconscious guilt?

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Naturally you took a screenshot.

 

[tim]

Naturally you took a screenshot.

I got that message initially, but then it forwarded me to the page. So now I know who Comrade Delta is. I checked on Wikipedia to just make sure

As I am neither a vigilante nor a Crown Prosecutor, I probably didn't need to know.

 

[Lurdan]

I got that message initially, but then it forwarded me to the page. So now I know who Comrade Delta is. I checked on Wikipedia to just make sure

As I am neither a vigilante nor a Crown Prosecutor, I probably didn't need to know.

Still not working for me. Not really very interested in Martin Smith. It was the tantalizing description of a "backdrop (...) portraying the relationship between Charlie Windsor & Jimmy Saville". Are they depicted doing anything interesting? Feasting on the adrenochrome of small children? Comparing their collections of Three Degrees albums?

 

[Nigel]

Still not working for me. Not really very interested in Martin Smith. It was the tantalizing description of a "backdrop (...) portraying the relationship between Charlie Windsor & Jimmy Saville". Are they depicted doing anything interesting? Feasting on the adrenochrome of small children? Comparing their collections of Three Degrees albums?

Apologies
I'm not in a position to do a screen shot atm.
If you go into the page Bring Back Rock Against Racism & use internal search; put in Simon Murch the article with Comrade Delta will come up.

Bring Back ROCK AGAINST RACISM | Facebook

In these times we belive there is a real need to revive Rock Against Racism to combat the rise of the Right wing. Our hope is to get some Bands involved and once again hold some Rallies and festivals...

www.facebook.com

 

[Lurdan]

If you go into the page Bring Back Rock Against Racism & use internal search; put in Simon Murch the article with Comrade Delta will come up.

This is a private facebook group so even if
A) I had a facebook account, which I don't, then
B) I assume I'd still have to join it in order to see this internal search engine.

And while I don't feel any particular imperative to respect Martin Smith's privacy (but equally no great interest in his current doings) I see the groups rules include

Respect everyone's privacy
Being part of this group requires mutual trust. Authentic, expressive discussions make groups great, but may also be sensitive and private. What's shared in the group should stay in the group.

All I wanted was some Saturday night Charles and Jimmy entertainment. Guess I should have realised these are very deep waters

 

[Nigel]

This is a private facebook group so even if
A) I had a facebook account, which I don't, then
B) I assume I'd still have to join it in order to see this internal search engine.

And while I don't feel any particular imperative to respect Martin Smith's privacy (but equally no great interest in his current doings) I see the groups rules include


All I wanted was some Saturday night Charles and Jimmy entertainment. Guess I should have realised these are very deep waters

This is the background pic on his Facebook account!
Are you happy now?

 

[Lurdan]

This is the background pic on his Facebook account!
Are you happy now?

Much obliged.

You asked "Could this be a projection of unconscious guilt?". Not sure my initial assumption, for what little it's worth, is that the Martin Smith's of this world "do" guilt, conscious or unconscious.

What does come to mind is my observation that one faction of those who shout loudest about nonces, do so primarily in order to draw a demarcation line between the behaviour of nonces, and their misogynist and exploitative behaviour towards their own 'legal-age' 'prey'.

 

[Nigel]

Much obliged.

You asked "Could this be a projection of unconscious guilt?". Not sure my initial assumption, for what little it's worth, is that the Martin Smith's of this world "do" guilt, conscious or unconscious.

What does come to mind is my observation that one faction of those who shout loudest about nonces, do so primarily in order to draw a demarcation line between the behaviour of nonces, and their misogynist and exploitative behaviour towards their own 'legal-age' 'prey'.

You make a good point there Lurden.

 

[imposs1904]

In my 20s, a friend and I once invited in some mormons/JWs/elim pentecostals (can't remember the sect). So I played them the tracks Stand Up For Judas and Abbeizer Coppe from Leon Rosselson/Roy Bailey's Love, Loneliness and Laundry album. At some point half way through one of the songs, they abruptly stood up, made their excuses and left.

I told my mate that they couldn't handle the "blaspemy". He pointed out that as I was still in a dressing gown and the record player was on the carpet, when I'd bent down to sort out the record, I'd accidentally exposed my hairy bollocks to the god botherers

Funnily enough they never came back.

Leon Rosselson's voice has that effect on me also.

*Brilliant songwriter, mind.

 

[nogojones]

Yeah
There's someone who was in Bristol Class War in the 1990s, who converted to Russian Orthodox Church that I've met, who is a members.
They seems to know some of the members, supporters, characters in and around Bristol C.W.F. at that time.

So I have to ask.... as part of your "spiritual transformation" are you now down with the Russian Orthodox Church as well? or does your spirit move in other ways?

 

[Nigel]

So I have to ask.... as part of your "spiritual transformation" are you now down with the Russian Orthodox Church as well? or does your spirit move in other ways?

Not necessarily partisan, however closest to Kabbalah!

Home Page

An Order of Teaching and Service providing friendly group meetings and/or Web-based Study programs tailored to the individuals requirements in the Theoretical and Practical Kabbalah. Established 1969.

iok-kabbalah.com

 

[nogojones]

Not necessarily partisan, however closest to Kabbalah!

Home Page

An Order of Teaching and Service providing friendly group meetings and/or Web-based Study programs tailored to the individuals requirements in the Theoretical and Practical Kabbalah. Established 1969.

iok-kabbalah.com

You'll probably be familiar with this lads channel, but just in case...

 

[Nigel]

You'll probably be familiar with this lads channel, but just in case...

Thanks

 

[Brainaddict]

Do any of the splinter groups (Counterfire, RS21 etc) survive in any meaningful numbers? Could this be part of a negotiation to bring the family back together? But Counterfire split was pre Delta wasn't it? Can't remember now.

RS21 is attracting new and younger members, in part because they are trying to be the woke, pro-trans wing of the trots. It helps put a fresh face on their otherwise conventional politics.

We see the Russian Revolution as the highest point of working-class struggle and stand in the tradition of those who opposed the Stalinist counter-revolution. We also enrich this tradition by drawing on the best of the anti-colonial, feminist, and anti-racist radical movements which have emerged over the last century

About rs21

Feminist. Anti-racist. Marxist. rs21 is a revolutionary socialist organisation based in Britain.

www.rs21.org.uk

 

[hitmouse]

Yep, and they get to have stalls at anarchist bookfairs nowadays and all, which is no mean feat. The hot gossip on the grapevine is that they have a Kautskyist tendency nowadays?

 

[imposs1904]

Yep, and they get to have stalls at anarchist bookfairs nowadays and all, which is no mean feat. The hot gossip on the grapevine is that they have a Kautskyist tendency nowadays?

I thought that was the CPGB-PCC/Weekly Worker? (Try saying that sentence when you're three sheets to the wind.)

 

[belboid]

As a highly inactive supporter of RS21,I have noted no Kautskyite (not Kautskyist, dont ask me why) tendencies

 

[imposs1904]

As a highly inactive supporter of RS21,I have noted no Kautskyite (not Kautskyist, dont ask me why) tendencies

Trotskyite was always considered a term of abuse from political opponents. (The prophet's children never referred to themselves as Trotskyites.) I wonder if it's the same with Kautskyite?

. . . both Kautskyite and Trotskyite rhyme with shite, I guess.

 

[Serge Forward]

As a highly inactive supporter of RS21,I have noted no Kautskyite (not Kautskyist, dont ask me why) tendencies

A Kautskyist is someone who adheres to the ideas of Kautsky or Kautskyism. A Kautskyite is a follower of, or in the mould of, Kautsky.

 

[hitmouse]

On the fairly rare occasion the subject comes up, I usually tend to go with "Kautsky-liker".

 

[nogojones]

Kautskyphile?

 

[The39thStep]

RS21 is attracting new and younger members, in part because they are trying to be the woke, pro-trans wing of the trots. It helps put a fresh face on their otherwise conventional politics.

About rs21

Feminist. Anti-racist. Marxist. rs21 is a revolutionary socialist organisation based in Britain.

www.rs21.org.uk

What stopping the downwardly mobile middle-class types and ‘other’ precarious workers alliance from trying adopting this woke pro- trans wing thing?

 

[Nigel]

What stopping the downwardly mobile middle-class types and ‘other’ precarious workers alliance from trying adopting this woke pro- trans wing thing?

I went to RS21 meeting around about a month ago.
They've developed blocs and sections within their Group for women ('cis' or otherwise), LGBTQ+, Black Section etc.
One of their leading cadre, who goes back to the SLL and early IS explained something about a defensive stand in the late 1970;s/80's and to downturn theory, as to why they expelled, liquidised Flame, Womens Voice, gay; work in GLF and I didn't realise until recently that there was some org. magazine around Asian Youth that SWP supporters were involved in. I don't know if this explanation fits into closing down of ANL?

This is a very different explanation of conventional SWP reasons for change in tactics and one just on the periphery (time wise) of my own understanding and reasons given for this.

With regards to RS21 this dynamic within their org. appears to have been positive; i.e. Lauren who identifies as, 'non binary', who was one of the Labour Councillors who left the Labour party recently over Palestine and undemocratic witch hunting joining Socialist Group of councillors in Oxford joined RS21, rather than standing again in local council elections.

 

[The39thStep]

I went to RS21 meeting around about a month ago.
They've developed blocs and sections within their Group for women ('cis' or otherwise), LGBTQ+, Black Section etc.
One of their leading cadre, who goes back to the SLL and early IS explained something about a defensive stand in the late 1970;s/80's and to downturn theory, as to why they expelled, liquidised Flame, Womens Voice, gay; work in GLF and I didn't realise until recently that there was some org. magazine around Asian Youth that SWP supporters were involved in. I don't know if this explanation fits into closing down of ANL?

This is a very different explanation of conventional SWP reasons for change in tactics and one just on the periphery (time wise) of my own understanding and reasons given for this.

With regards to RS21 this dynamic within their org. appears to have been positive; i.e. Lauren who identifies as, 'non binary', who was one of the Labour Councillors who left the Labour party recently over Palestine and undemocratic witch hunting joining Socialist Group of councillors in Oxford joined RS21, rather than standing again in local council elections.

As I recall there were two main reasons, given at the party conference that I attended, for the winding down of women voice , flame, and rank and file . Firstly the downturn theory which impacted on w/class rank and file activity and drew the conclusion that it was the party that needed building and this merged into the second issue that the supporters of women's voice , flame and the Asian group should be recruited directly into the party. The ANL wind up was defended on the grounds that an organisation of that scale was no longer required.

To be perfectly fair to the SWP this was publicly announced , was the party line and discussed in branches so I fail to understand how you didn't understand.

 

[Nigel]

As I recall there were two main reasons, given at the party conference that I attended, for the winding down of women voice , flame, and rank and file . Firstly the downturn theory which impacted on w/class rank and file activity and drew the conclusion that it was the party that needed building and this merged into the second issue that the supporters of women's voice , flame and the Asian group should be recruited directly into the party. The ANL wind up was defended on the grounds that an organisation of that scale was no longer required.

To be perfectly fair to the SWP this was publicly announced , was the party line and discussed in branches so I fail to understand how you didn't understand.

I had their impression that it was more to do with Thatcherite attacks on Unions!
Yeah I vaguely remember some form of discussion, although being quite young at the time, didn't take it all in, however it was hardly democratic; more like mandated!
With regards ANL, one of the arguments was that the N F were no longer a threat as the tories under Thatcher had taken on their policies.
Arguments around WV and Flame, as far as I remember were that these could alienate black people and women from 'the struggle' and lead to careerism.

Yeah I agree. The Downturn Theory was used as a 'one size fits all', reason/justification for this/these transitions and others.

 

[The39thStep]

I had their impression that it was more to do with Thatcherite attacks on Unions!
Yeah I vaguely remember some form of discussion, although being quite young at the time, didn't take it all in, however it was hardly democratic; more like mandated!
With regards ANL, one of the arguments was that the N F were no longer a threat as the tories under Thatcher had taken on their policies.
Arguments around WV and Flame, as far as I remember were that these could alienate black people and women from 'the struggle' and lead to careerism.

Yeah I agree. The Downturn Theory was used as a 'one size fits all', reason for this/these transitions and others.

The issues were all in the pre-conference bulletins which were circulated in the months /weeks leading up to the National Conference. Any member or group of members can respond to or initiate proposals by writing an article or outlining their position in the preconference bulletins. We had discussions in our branches around those documents. It was debated at the National Conference, as a delegate from my branch I voted against the closure of rank and file groups .

 

[Nigel]

The issues were all in the pre-conference bulletins which were circulated in the months /weeks leading up to the National Conference. Any member or group of members can respond to or initiate proposals by writing an article or outlining their position in the preconference bulletins. We had discussions in our branches around those documents. It was debated at the National Conference, as a delegate from my branch I voted against the closure of rank and file groups .

And more than likely, disagreeing with the party line be ostracised, marginalised, suspended and expelled afterwards.
Out of curiosity which conference was this 1981, 1982,1983 0r another one?