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SWP expulsions and squabbles

The ISG are essentially very very annoyingly enthusiastic rather middle class trots, the two worst stereotypes of trot parties all in one group. They certainly have Bambery's view re new media with an eye to 'communiques' on the web and meetings in contemporary art centres....

As for Bambery i'm reminded of a retort from an old SWPer up here on being told he had taken all the younger activists with him, the reply was along the lines of yes, those who've known him a long time didn't go with him....

In fairness they've done some good work round the 'Coalition of Resistance' up here and certainly did a job on the radical Independence Convention. Their work on CoR certainly pissed off their erstwhile SWP comrades in RTW up here.
 
The ISG are essentially very very annoyingly enthusiastic rather middle class trots, the two worst stereotypes of trot parites all in one group. They certainly have Bambery's view re new media with an eye to 'communiques' on the web and meetings in contemporary art centres....

As for Bambery i'm reminded of a retort from an old SWPer up here on being told he had taken all the younger activists with him, the reply was along the lines of yes, those who've known hoim a long time didn't go with him....


Are you refering to people like Martin Smith: "At the special CC held on Friday 8 April I was told by Martin Smith I played a 'filthy' and 'disgraceful' role in the party, a 'foul role in Scotland' and despite the CC 'fighting hard' to integrate me I had 'spent the last year and a half organising against the CC.'"

His project had not done well enough in bringing recruits "Right To Work was initiated in bizarre circumstances (I learned the news from Party Notes) and the CC as a whole has never applied systematic pressure to push the formal position through the party."

Where do the real Scottish left celebrities like Rosie Kane stand in relation to the ISG and Bambery?
 
Are you refering to people like Martin Smith: "At the special CC held on Friday 8 April I was told by Martin Smith I played a 'filthy' and 'disgraceful' role in the party, a 'foul role in Scotland' and despite the CC 'fighting hard' to integrate me I had 'spent the last year and a half organising against the CC.'"

His project had not done well enough in bringing recruits "Right To Work was initiated in bizarre circumstances (I learned the news from Party Notes) and the CC as a whole has never applied systematic pressure to push the formal position through the party."

Where do the real Scottish left celebrities like Rosie Kane stand in relation to the ISG and Bambery?

as far away as they can
 
When do most SWP branch meetings take place, Wednesday, Thursday nights? So I guess it's not until then that we'll get a real indication of the extent of the revolt and whether it has a chance. I hope at least a few of those attending will keep us updated.
 
Are you refering to people like Martin Smith: "At the special CC held on Friday 8 April I was told by Martin Smith I played a 'filthy' and 'disgraceful' role in the party, a 'foul role in Scotland' and despite the CC 'fighting hard' to integrate me I had 'spent the last year and a half organising against the CC.'"

His project had not done well enough in bringing recruits "Right To Work was initiated in bizarre circumstances (I learned the news from Party Notes) and the CC as a whole has never applied systematic pressure to push the formal position through the party."

Where do the real Scottish left celebrities like Rosie Kane stand in relation to the ISG and Bambery?

This is a joke surely?
 
Not being used as a donkey, someone they can talk real politics to.

Dunno.To be honest I've not been very active the last couple of months. I doubt they would have me on any committees or anything like that though!

I've been to the CWI school once and the conference a couple of times. I've got to say that I hope that this SWP debacle produces a bit more of a debate in the left about democratic centralism, what it is, etc. The SP is pretty democratic tbh, stuff does get voted on and the people who disagree or vote against it don't get booted out, and I doubt they'd handle something as serious as a case like this in the way the SWP has. However it's within the limitations of a "slate system" etc, something that I have never been 100% sure about.

I don't agree with that vanguard of the class stuff. I never have. I can see how a party might be needed as a form of organisation to organise a revolution but I am not sure that the CWI is that party although it is certainly one of the best out there, and I don't think that people are incapable of being anything but "reformist" without joining a trotskyist party, because I know that I was a marxist long before I joined the SP, and there are lots of people on here for example who are far more knowledgeable about Marxism and probably with a better grasp on theory etc and less "reformist" than I am, who have never been members of trotskyist parties.

I think the argument in that article does go against marxism, the idea that the revolutionary party members are above the working class and are more theoretically advanced, when the whole idea of marxism is to abolish class society and not reinforce it.
 
I knew the SWP were trots yeah - cos they told me. Didn't have a clue what that meant other than they liked the old dead Russian fella who got ice-picked and not the one who had him ice-picked. Beyond that I didn't have a clue. I was just given Marxism by numbers pamphlets by Martin Smith and Joseph Choonara and when I asked about reading Marx I was told it wasn't worth bothering with anything beyond the manifesto. Don't know if it was cos I was too working class or if it's cos that's how they deal with all new recruits though - I suspect it's the latter to be honest.

Wasn't until after I'd left and started reading serious theory (was determined to read capital after being told it was too 'difficult' and that it would put me off - I actually really enjoyed Vol I) and history that I started to get an idea of what it all really meant.

Sounds like the catholic church prior to erasmus, luther, muntzer etc about not allowing people to go near the texts and get their own interpretation happening.
 
As for Bambery i'm reminded of a retort from an old SWPer up here on being told he had taken all the younger activists with him, the reply was along the lines of yes, those who've known him a long time didn't go with him....

The old boys (and girl) weren't invited, they just woke up one day to find there were only 30 of them left in Glasgow SWP, all over the age of 50 with noone to sell their papers. They really haven't recovers since. Recent developments will drive them further to the margins.
 
Dunno.To be honest I've not been very active the last couple of months. I doubt they would have me on any committees or anything like that though!

I've been to the CWI school once and the conference a couple of times. I've got to say that I hope that this SWP debacle produces a bit more of a debate in the left about democratic centralism, what it is, etc. The SP is pretty democratic tbh, stuff does get voted on and the people who disagree or vote against it don't get booted out, and I doubt they'd handle something as serious as a case like this in the way the SWP has. However it's within the limitations of a "slate system" etc, something that I have never been 100% sure about.

I don't agree with that vanguard of the class stuff. I never have. I can see how a party might be needed as a form of organisation to organise a revolution but I am not sure that the CWI is that party although it is certainly one of the best out there, and I don't think that people are incapable of being anything but "reformist" without joining a trotskyist party, because I know that I was a marxist long before I joined the SP, and there are lots of people on here for example who are far more knowledgeable about Marxism and probably with a better gras That p on theory etc and less "reformist" than I am, who have never been members of trotskyist parties.

I think the argument in that article does go against marxism, the idea that the revolutionary party members are above the working class and are more theoretically advanced, when the whole idea of marxism is to abolish class society and not reinforce it.
Your party is leninist. That is the vanguard of the class stuff.
 
This is a joke surely?

Which part?

Also if anyone knows whether Bambery is literate in Arabic whilst being a Middle East expert? He wrote a good document on 20th century Bahrain but it referred only to documents in English.
 
Your party is leninist. That is the vanguard of the class stuff.

Yeah I know but I suspect most SP members don't believe that they are better or more advanced than other working class people. In which case they are probably not believing in leninism in the way lenin intended.
 
Nobody's ever mentioned RSL to me except as an organisation that once existed and I've been a member almost 3 years.
 
The old boys (and girl) weren't invited, they just woke up one day to find there were only 30 of them left in Glasgow SWP, all over the age of 50 with noone to sell their papers. They really haven't recovers since. Recent developments will drive them further to the margins.

This sounds so odd - Chris Bambery like some kind of 'Pied Piper of Hamlyn leading away the Glaswegian SWP youth so the older SWP are left at the margins of Glasgow, unable to sell newspapers, just holding Marxist forums in Paisley.
.
 
Yeah I know but I suspect most SP members don't believe that they are better or more advanced than other working class people. In which case they are probably not believing in leninism in the way lenin intended.
What then is the point of your parties central ideological perspective? Yeah i note, it was the other lenin, the one that ignorant people like me know zip about but the SP do.
 
It took me after lots of failed attempts, till i was 33 to finally read capital volume 1. Id definately like to be more active, but its kinda depressing that one would have to read all about stuff that took place in russia and various parties interpretations thereof to pick the right party.... Being serious, how many people in any given party is fully aquainted with all the subtle theoretical differences they hold vis a vis other parties?
 
Yeah I know but I suspect most SP members don't believe that they are better or more advanced than other working class people. In which case they are probably not believing in leninism in the way lenin intended.
the working class contains some right backwards, arsehole crawling, cowardly twats, it has to be said.
 
What then is the point of your parties central ideological perspective? Yeah i note, it was the other lenin, the one that ignorant people like me know zip about but the SP do.

yeah ive never been 100% convinced on this stuff tbh and to be honest I really hope that this horrible SWP case means the whole idea of democratic centralism is looked at again, not necessarily to get rid of it but to change it a bit. I joined the SP because of the fact that they do good work and are the party closest to my views. I don't even think many of the full-timers buy into the idea that being in a trotskyist party means they know more than everyone in the working class, I can't imagine it of many of the people I know.
 
What then is the point of your parties central ideological perspective? Yeah i note, it was the other lenin, the one that ignorant people like me know zip about but the SP do.

If anyone cares this is what today's Taaffeite SP consider a healthy and unhealthy regime with respect to Lenin:

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/keyword/Marxism/Lenin/15973/14-01-2013/party-amp-internal-regime

"Of course, permanent 'factions' - on the pattern of the LCR in France - are not a 'good thing' in a revolutionary organisation. They were certainly not the 'norm' in the Bolshevik party, with trends, tendencies and even 'factions' occasionally developing but then dissolving when the issues under discussion were resolved by the march of events or some left the ranks of the Bolshevik party for either opportunistic or ultra-left reasons. It is true that, at the Tenth Party Congress in the exceptional conditions of civil war, Lenin proposed a temporary ban on factions. However, it was then and remains today, a highly contentious issue. This action of Lenin undoubtedly became a starting point from an 'organisational' point of view for Stalin and the rising bureaucracy to legitimise later its lasting and formal ban on all 'factions'. But the burgeoning Stalinist bureaucratic counter-revolution utilised this 'precedent' - in a completely dishonest and disloyal fashion - to not only ban factions but stamp on all dissent, particularly of the Left Opposition, within the 'party'. Lenin believed that this temporary measure of 'banning' factions would be lifted as soon as the immediate danger of the civil war had passed.
To be sure, the existence of 'permanent factions' is not a reflection of a 'healthy regime', à la Lenin and Trotsky, as some in the Mandelite USFI believe. In fact, it denotes a lack of confidence in the leadership, an inability once the immediate issues under dispute recede, to then reunite the party. If you are in 'permanent opposition', which is what a 'permanent faction' means, why then remain within a party? Sometimes, it is better for a separation to take place in order that different ideas, programmes and tactics can be tested out before audiences of workers and young people. This, of course, then presupposes collaboration, an element of the united front discussed previously, is employed by separate organisations. Trotsky pointed out that the French social democracy was quite willing to tolerate tame 'permanent factions' because it gave the false impression that it was 'democratic'. However, as soon as a serious organised political oppositional current developed from the left, it was invariably shown the door."

CWI is politically confident:


"A politically confident leadership always acts in the fashion that the CWI has done. Lenin never resorted to disciplinary measures in the first instance nor did Trotsky advocate such a course in the International Left Opposition in the 1930s, for instance."
 
It took me after lots of failed attempts, till i was 33 to finally read capital volume 1. Id definately like to be more active, but its kinda depressing that one would have to read all about stuff that took place in russia and various parties interpretations thereof to pick the right party.... Being serious, how many people in any given party is fully aquainted with all the subtle theoretical differences they hold vis a vis other parties?

Not that many I'd wager - and the vast majority of the time it doesn't even fucking matter.

What then is the point of your parties central ideological perspective? Yeah i note, it was the other lenin, the one that ignorant people like me know zip about but the SP do.

I think she's saying the opposite actually - that they don't really understand Leninism.
 
Which part?

Also if anyone knows whether Bambery is literate in Arabic whilst being a Middle East expert? He wrote a good document on 20th century Bahrain but it referred only to documents in English.

The whole defending Bambery schtick. And snides about left Scottish 'celebs'.
 
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