discokermit
Well-Known Member
relation to what?
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
To how you view politics.
A changing world that always gives back the same answer is worthless.
A changing world that always gives back the same answer is worthless.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
undoubtedly true.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
yeh. like i'm some student at freshers.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Indeed, the struggle is not to foster and build class struggle but to use class struggle to win the BEST and the MOST MILITANT to you for the real struggle which will happen when the CC says so later on.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You might as well be.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
fuck off. if that's all you've got.
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
A suicide note from one Emma Rock is now on Leninology:
http://www.leninology.com/2013/01/guest-post-on-crisis.html
Don't imagine that one will convince many loyalists. It does read like she thought she was in an entirely different party to the one she joined.
http://www.leninology.com/2013/01/guest-post-on-crisis.html
Don't imagine that one will convince many loyalists. It does read like she thought she was in an entirely different party to the one she joined.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Seriously, if all you can say is that leninist discipline is right in all conditions and that democratic centralism is right in all conditions, then go onto have a go at people who suggest that maybe conditions have changed by saying that conditions changed so leninist discipline is even more right in all conditions , then no you can fuck off. You're the one freezing an organisational form but also saying oh yeah it's full of flexibility and that - after being expelled - after seeing that it's not so flexible. And after seeing it happen again here, and in example after example.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I enjoyed her deployment of the SWP leadership's usual dismissal of those who won't get with their latest big idea, the dreaded "conservative layer", against the CC.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
The argument about "Leninist discipline" and "democratic centralism" is pointless in the abstract, given that either of those terms can be filled with almost any content.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
you've not read a word i've said.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I've read every single word. You've not said much - you said that times change and that this means that the current CC might face a serious challenge. But that all that old shit is still great. What have i missed?
discokermit
Well-Known Member
yeh, i said that. yes indeed.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Can they be filled with moon-dust? Can they be filled with the behavior of a party which cleaves to that form of organisation? I think it can't on the former, but can on the latter.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
To be honest when I joined the SWP I didn't have a fucking clue what it was apart from that it was on the left and not labour, which at the time seemed good enough. But I've got no idea what any of that's even supposed to mean - I can't even tell whether I agree with it or not
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Spiney's a member?
No, was once though - for about a year I think.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yep. But, as i said, we'll do it right this next time, it was all the other globally doing it the wrong way over and over, and all them splits that were going to do it the right way who id it wrong. For a marxist to not look at structures is pretty fucking shocking.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Yes, class struggle to win the battle of the vanguards - given that in every Western country there are at least seven separate vanguards all from the same tradition.
As if on cue http://www.leninology.com/2013/01/guest-post-on-crisis.html
A part of the SWP believes it is lagging behind UK Uncut (which wasn't even supposed to be an organisation, but a collection of separate events) and Occupy (Green Party people either within it or outside it)
Out-win them!
Admitting "the class" won the race and get off the track? Not a chance.
The political problems identified for the SWP:
1 Use the facebook and twitter more.
2 Transsexualism.
Apart from that carry on just the same. Just vote a new slate.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Jesus, Seymour clearly isn't interested in winning over the centre ground if he's going to publish stuff like that. Just dissolve the party into the movements now rather than let him take over.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It can be filled with the behaviour and proclamations of the parties and groups and individuals who claim it, as numerous as the stars in heaven and as varied as snowflakes.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
What parts do you agree/disagree with - as a non-ISO party member but ongoing Cliffite?
She clearly didn't read the ISJ.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What it means is that when my partner joined militant she had no idea it was a trotskysist group - she was too working class to be told what was really going on, not proper cadre material. Then after running the bristol anti-poll tax campaign was slowly moved out. Then 20 years later someone who was was about 8 (nigel irritable) at the time asked her about it - when she said she had no idea that she was joining a trot party - if she thought she was joining a tea party. Did you norm? Did you know?To be honest when I joined the SWP I didn't have a fucking clue what it was apart from that it was on the left and not labour, which at the time seemed good enough. But I've got no idea what any of that's even supposed to mean - I can't even tell whether I agree with it or not
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not that many. And we can be quite specific.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What are 'the movements'? Is there a second term involved: 'the party'?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
This is at least more out there than Richard Seymour:
"We need an entirely new leadership, and we need to comprehensively overhaul all the democratic structures of the party. All party forums should be more than just talking shops and should have real teeth to implement new ideas. Likewise ideology and the development of our political position should not be left to a handful of theorists but should be engaged in by every comrade in every branch."
It sounds good but what will it mean in practice if the conference can be recalled will there be a slate defending an alternative ideology-creation structure to slug it out with the CC?
"We need an entirely new leadership, and we need to comprehensively overhaul all the democratic structures of the party. All party forums should be more than just talking shops and should have real teeth to implement new ideas. Likewise ideology and the development of our political position should not be left to a handful of theorists but should be engaged in by every comrade in every branch."
It sounds good but what will it mean in practice if the conference can be recalled will there be a slate defending an alternative ideology-creation structure to slug it out with the CC?
discokermit
Well-Known Member
yep. a half joke and something saying the opposite.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Well then, be specific.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The thing saying the opposite and in defence of Leninist discipline and democratic centralism:
Management speak. Means nothing. Every opposition says that whilst signing up to the very things that make sure it cannot happen - i.e we'll do real proper democratic centralism - whilst proper democratic centralism shuts the down and expels them.
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