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SWP expulsions and squabbles

Delta was publicly fronting UAF stuff this week.

I think you're wrong - the big heads will go in order to inflame - then lockdown - under attack, then CC does what it wants. Like the 80s but in very very very fast motion.

Oh, I think that they'll boot them out. I just think it's interesting that they haven't done so yet and tend to believe that it's because they are somewhat stunned at the amount of opposition that has erupted and are trying to work out a strategy.

They also have the mainstream media to worry about, which hasn't previously been a concern when they were giving oppositionists the chop. This time though... well precipitous expulsions will get them back in the papers and in the worst possible light.
 
Andy Newman, a man whose passion for self righteousness and self publicity knows no boundaries known to man, has moved the SWP conference transcript to the top of the site as apparently people couldn't find it
 
Oh, I think that they'll boot them out. I just think it's interesting that they haven't done so yet and tend to believe that it's because they are somewhat stunned at the amount of opposition that has erupted and are trying to work out a strategy.
Yep, I think they realise that if they start expelling people on mass they risk hundreds more leaving of their own accord. They are trying to work out how to get rid of the ring leaders without losing a big chunk of the active membership along with them.
 
Andy Newman, a man whose passion for self righteousness and self publicity knows no boundaries known to man, has moved the SWP conference transcript to the top of the site as apparently people couldn't find it
I have pretty much given up following the discussion on SU, is there anyone who posts there who isn't a total tosser?
 
Oh, I think that they'll boot them out. I just think it's interesting that they haven't done so yet and tend to believe that it's because they are somewhat stunned at the amount of opposition that has erupted and are trying to work out a strategy.

They also have the mainstream media to worry about, which hasn't previously been a concern when they were giving oppositionists the chop. This time though... well precipitous expulsions will get them back in the papers and in the worst possible light.
I think they'll do it soon though, the longer this goes on the harder and firmer opposition will become - by simple association. They might be surprised, and maybe panicking - but the whole panoply of trot measures is designed to deal with panic. Old age method - out, demon, out. Close down the party.
 
Yep, I think they realise that if they start expelling people on mass they risk hundreds more leaving of their own accord. They are trying to work out how to get rid of the ring leaders without losing a big chunk of the active membership along with them.
I think they've decided a whole chunk of people who never really grasped the IS tradition can go. You know, you don't want trouble in the future do you?
 
I think they've decided a whole chunk of people who never really grasped the IS tradition can go. You know, you don't want trouble in the future do you?

Well, yes, I certainly think that they are resigned to losing, say a hundred. Which would be a noticeable part of their active membership, but a manageable loss in and of itself (leaving aside the wider problems this mess is going to cause for them). The issue for them is how to lost that hundred in a way that doesn't cause the vacillating and/or thus far passive elements to go apeshit.

Remember, they've still got the whole "centre ground" opposition to deal with too, including recent CC members, etc.

butchersapron said:
They might be surprised, and maybe panicking - but the whole panoply of trot measures is designed to deal with panic. Old age method - out, demon, out. Close down the party

That's been the SWP's method certainly. Our lot mostly prefer to settle down to an endless exchange of endless documents until whoever's been making a pain in the arse of themselves gets bored and wanders off of their own accord.
 
Our lot mostly prefer to settle down to an endless exchange of endless documents until whoever's been making a pain in the arse of themselves gets bored and wanders off of their own accord.

Best way to do it.

Talk out your differences
 
were you in the CPGB barney? Tell me more?

Would here be a good place to start going on about scurrilous rumours I've been hearing about current ructions in the SWP?? Or should I be sensible and save what little dignity I have?

Oh ok well apparently this group of opposition are never going to get to the 20% threshold, because there's a load of paper branches that have only a nominal membership, that most members don't even realise exist, that they can never win the support of, that'll prevent them from getting to the target. Rotten boroughs, in other words.
I joined
The cpgb shortly after leaving the SWP in 2004, I was a member of their Guildford branch, and had the good fortune to be introduced to to the great Manny N. as well as a number of other good people, I had been attracted to the WW's criticism of the respect project, but joined just as they decided to enter respect as a part it's trailing of the SWP.
I went straight into the opposition which manny started, the red platform and found that the vaunted openness of the cpgb was somewhat skin deep. Manny in particular was the subject of pretty despicable attacks from ian Donovan, the 'detached' attack dog of the pcc. In the end the space provided by WW for the platform was withdrawn and this spurred first Mannys and then my departure. A few months later we all met up at an AWL summer school, and in the pub decided to form the red party.
 
<i>"This is the problem with a perspective from the top table: it leads to insularity, a disconnect from the real world. What looks intelligent and hard-headed from the inside simply appears foolish to everyone else."</i>

Seymour put that little jab in his Guardian piece on the Lib Dems today.
 
He and some others apparently formed a group called IS Group and wrote a pamphlet arguing that the SWP was bureaucratic centralist rather than democratic centralist and proposed a number of constitutional changes , one of them being the election of the control commission.
i know, i was in it. in fact i was membership secretary or recruitment organiser or summat. it was pretty fluid. point is, there was a bit more to it than just an elected control comission.
the link to the i.s. was that we very much looked to the early tradition as something to aspire to. we also published jim higgins' "more years for the locust".
 
i know, i was in it. in fact i was membership secretary or recruitment organiser or summat. it was pretty fluid. point is, there was a bit more to it than just an elected cc.
the link to the i.s. was that we very much looked to the early tradition as something to aspire to. we also published jim higgins' "more years for the locust".

Really? I'd always assumed that the "IS Group" was just Wilson and a couple of mates. How many of you were there? And how come the SWP let you back in? I'd have thought that involvement in that kind of outfit would have meant marking your cards permanently.
 
Really? I'd always assumed that the "IS Group" was just Wilson and a couple of mates. How many of you were there? And how come the SWP let you back in? I'd have thought that involvement in that kind of outfit would have meant marking your cards permanently.
four/five in london, eight in wolverhampton, one in southampton, two or three very close to joining in derby, so, between ten and seventeen on any given day. the swp didn't let us back in and went as far as expelling two members just for attending a meeting. one of those expelled, a teacher, was screamed at by a longstanding swp member at work, the longstanding member being head of the department she worked in.
 
I think they'll do it soon though, the longer this goes on the harder and firmer opposition will become - by simple association. They might be surprised, and maybe panicking - but the whole panoply of trot measures is designed to deal with panic. Old age method - out, demon, out. Close down the party.
maybe so but i think you are overlooking both the weakness of the leadership faction and the level of dissatisfaction amongst the membership. also, this is the first faction fight in the swp i can think of that has actually come from the membership, all previous ones were top down.
 
The continuity of conformism
"Get along to a meeting
I joined the Socialist Workers Party at Marxism 2012 after reading the paper for a few months. Since then I have been to as many meetings as possible and learned more than in the previous 20 odd years.

I would happily encourage anyone reading this to get to a meeting, listen, learn, speak up, think, ask questions and get involved. You might even get a cup of tea.

Matty, Bradford"

"The Leninist party model is entirely different, and not based on bourgeois democracy but the relationship between ideas, revolutionary goals and its environment. Though aiming to convince the majority class to take control, a revolutionary party is very much a minority, attracting only the most politically advanced to its ranks. They, in turn, seek to act as a vanguard, to win over the reformist majority of the working class. For the minority to do this it must put forward radical arguments, and propose alternative forms of action-in other words to lead. Thus the revolutionary party must aspire to make every member a leader. In that sense the normal definition of leaders/followers breaks down, and it is more accurate to talk about a technical division of labour between a “party centre” and a party rank and file.

The centre may consist of those who have proved their abilities, can bring particular theoretical or practical experience to bear, have the time and opportunity to play a central role in the organisation, and so on. But, in essence, it is not distinct from the rank and file in the way that an MP or union general secretary is. Bourgeois democracy makes a fetish of elections and representation in order to disguise who really rules. The revolutionary party has no use for such a fetish. It does not exist for itself, for the momentary satisfaction individuals might gain from self-expression in a ballot, but for a specific purpose-the transformation of society. Its internal processes are there to assist that process and nothing more.

Revolutionary party members cannot passively wait for the centre to act on their behalf, nor is it in the interest of the centre for the members to be reduced to passivity. The relationship between both must be dynamic and interactive if a party of leaders is to exist. It does not follow that a revolutionary party is automatically immune from bureaucratic degeneration. Protection from that lies not so much in a constitution as in political action. The relationship between internal structure and external context applies here, as elsewhere.

In seeking to engage with those who are at present to its right, a revolutionary party exposes itself to a working class that is majority reformist. So the danger of accommodating to reformism does not disappear just because someone joins. For example, members may hold prominent positions in trade unions; that puts them under pressure from the bureaucracy. Other members might begin with a revolutionary attitude but succumb to bourgeois ideology over time. Revolutionaries must work alongside members of reformist organisations in joint campaigns and may be more influenced by them rather than vice versa.

In this situation the party cannot remain true to its ideal of winning real democracy unless it can prevent this drag to the right. So a primary democratic function of the internal structure is to uphold the revolutionary ideal against pressures on members to accommodate. For this to work all of the party must be accountable for their actions and their politics-both at the centre and in the rank and file. Accountability is absent in reformist parties, because members can hold backward bourgeois ideas, leaders can sell out-and nothing happens. Russia’s Mensheviks were originally in the same party as the Bolsheviks (the Russian Social Democratic and Labour Party), but a split occurred precisely over the issue of accountability, which they regarded as unnecessary. When the Bolsheviks achieved their great democratic leap forward, the Mensheviks were in the camp of the Whites, battling through civil war to defeat these gains.

Countering the drag to the right produces an opposite danger-that the party becomes a sect. Till the moment of the revolution itself revolutionaries are constantly swimming against the stream, and so there is a temptation to renounce meaningful interaction with the working class and retreat into a more comfortable isolation. This leaves them preaching at the class from the sidelines rather than trying to lead. This has been the fate of many socialist parties in the past. The internal regime of a sect is sclerotic and tends to lack democratic debate, because all that is required (for both leadership and rank and file) is constant repetition of unchanging general beliefs and strategy. Revolution, which alone can bring real democracy, cannot be achieved if it becomes a sterile belief and is not constantly tested, developed and informed by the struggle for leadership in the working class. So just as the revolutionary party protects itself from the pressure to adapt to its capitalist environment, it must expose itself through intervention.

This requires an internal structure that reflects members’ experience in striving to lead within the working class and decides how to act. It is called “democratic centralism”. It does not prefigure a workers’ state or mass democracy, such as the soviet. Trotsky, whose commitment to proletarian democracy cost him his life at the hands of a Stalinist assassin, was insistent that democratic centralism was not a formal set of constitutional points. There was no:

formula on democratic centralism that “once and for all” would eliminate misunderstandings and false interpretations. A party is an active organism. It develops in the struggle with outside obstacles and inner contradictions… The regime of a party does not fall ready made from the sky but is formed gradually in struggle. A political line predominates over the regime. First of all, it is necessary to define strategic problems and tactical methods correctly in order to solve them. The organisational forms should correspond to the strategy and the tactic.74

Here is a classic expression of this article’s argument. The key to healthy internal relationships within a revolutionary party is the correct political orientation outside the party. Such intervention consists of two elements-the formulation of the strategy and its application. The balance was described by Lenin in these terms:

We must centralise the leadership of the movement. We must also…decentralise responsibility to the party on the part of its individual members, of every participant in its work, and of every circle belonging to or associated with the party. This decentralisation is an essential prerequisite of revolutionary centralisation and an essential corrective to it.75

Democratic centralism is not only a necessity from an internal party point of view. It is an essential counter both at this level, and at the level of the working class as a whole, to the undemocratic centralism of the ruling class.

Whatever democratic figleaf is in place, the capitalist minority of exploiters depend on intense centralism to prevail against the majority. The capitalist state is highly centralised, and most noticeably so in its weapons of coercion-the army and police. Here power is concentrated through a rigid, unelected and unaccountable hierarchy, from privates at the base to generals at the top. But this is mirrored equally in the staggering concentrations represented by giant corporations. For example, in 2007 Walmart, Exxon and Shell were each worth as much as the Greek economy, larger than Denmark, Argentina and South Africa, and so on.

The working class needs to centralise its efforts if it is to stand up against such accumulations of force. As a class this cannot be achieved on an individual basis. It requires the involvement of as many people as possible and so must also be democratic. In both an abstract and a practical sense, democracy and centralism are contradictory and complementary.

It is easy to talk about democratic centralism in a revolutionary party, but harder to practise it. If that party spends all its time in democratic discussions to find the best approach, it ceases to deserve the name and becomes an irrelevant talking shop and sect. If a party spends all its time implementing decisions that have been taken, but never revises them to fit changing circumstances, it will be out of touch with the needs of the moment-again a sect. The correct balance must be struck, although this changes constantly.

Writing on the subject in 1937 Trotsky said:

Democracy and centralism do not at all find themselves in an invariable ratio to one another. Everything depends on the concrete circumstances, on the political situation in the country, on the strength of the party and its experience, on the general level of its members, on the authority the leadership has succeeded in winning. Before a conference, when the problem is one of formulating a political line for the next period, democracy triumphs over centralism.

When the problem is political action, centralism subordinates democracy to itself. Democracy again asserts its rights when the party feels the need to examine critically its own actions. The equilibrium between democracy and centralism establishes itself in the actual struggle; at moments it is violated and then again re-established.76

Democratic centralism in the revolutionary party is the opposite of what occurs under the most free and fair parliamentary system. Here the centralism of the rich and powerful and their state, armies, courts and legislatures work to protect the ruling class, all under the pretence of democracy."
 
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