SWP expulsions and squabbles

[manny-p]

If the opposition is somehow linked with the Association of Musical Marxists I think you will after watching the video that they are not going to be a pole of attraction for anyone wanting to change the world:

Jesus fuck. I just boked.

 

[cesare]

Jesus fuck.

I got as far as 1:25 before stopping.

 

[emanymton]

Your not wrong stopping the branch meetings was a disaster and they lost a lot of members as people just drifted away. They gradually brought the back, without ever admitting it was a mistake of course.

Eta at Red cat

 

[frogwoman]

One of the reasons behind this is because Trotskyite sects generally don't like branches to communicate with each other, two branches talking to each other is sign of a secret faction that could threaten the leadership. It's pure paranoia. It's like Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, wouldn't allow any 2 of his generals to talk to each other over the phone, because he thought two generals wanting to speak to each other was evidence of a coup. It's paranoia common to any heirachical group. Controlling the means of communicating to the membership is one of the key things needed to maintain an oligarchy.

And in the Socialist Party, although I'm not invovled with them at the moment, this was also a problem. I barely remember any contact with other regional branches. However I get the feeling branches are given a bit more autonomy in the Socialist Party then in the SWP, there's certainly never been any sort of "line" members were expected to follow handed down from the national committee upon high. Paper sales they were like the SWP account, but there was more resistance to it in my branch and I don't think they could've made people sell papers no matter what they do. I think a lot of people's experiences of the SP differ according to what branch your in personally, if you're lucky enough to be a in branch that has a high proportion of normal people who aren't nutty cranks then you'll come away with a better impression than in some other places.

Quite a lot of contact between the branches in my region.

 

[frogwoman]

Ok you're right, I'll rephrase that, it's common to any sort of heirachical political organisation with undemocratic tendencies. Keeping members from being able to contact each other, keeping members lists in the hands of the clique at the top, keeping e-mail lists secret so that no-one outside the executive committee can access them, controlling the flow of information to the membership via the party newspaper and so on. All part of "democratic" centralism, all part of keeping an oligarchy in power.

That's not really my experience of the SP I have to say. Branches round here cooperate a lot on stuff.

 

[The39thStep]

Your not wrong stopping the branch meetings was a disaster and they lost a lot of members as people just drifted away. They gradually brought the back, without ever admitting it was a mistake of course.

Eta at Red cat

Stopping the beer breaks at the branch meetings inn the 1980s was the beginning of the rot.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

trendy cafes and art spaces are the best places to meet not pubs

 

[Delroy Booth]

That's not really my experience of the SP I have to say. Branches round here cooperate a lot on stuff.

I guess they've just been running a rogue branch for ages then. They're not even Leninists in Huddersfield, they just do what they want

I met someone in the Wakefield branch once, who lives only a few miles away from me, and we'd never heard of each other. Probably the one person I actually live nearest to in the whole party, and we never met, for years. No-one ever thought to put us in touch with each other. I thought that was mad at the time and I still do.

And lets look at this SWP thing again. To get a recall conference you need to get 20% of the membership to agree to it. That's a few thousand "members" to organise. How can branches actually go about doing this? What organisation, other than the CC, actually has the ability to pull together that amount of people? It's taken for granted that branches on their own can't actually organise independently amongst themselves 20% of the party, precisely because they don't have the means to do it. It's like an in built self defence mechanism.

That sort of thing is going to become impossible in the future with facebook and twitter people will be able to organised large groups very quickly, but right now that's besides the point these things were put in place for a reason - to secure the people at the top.

A lot of this is theoretical stuff too, ripped off from random anarchoid musings on the failings of Leninism and with a bit of Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy thrown in. So I know in a lot of cases groups at various points will have had a better internal democratic culture

 

[butchersapron]

I guess they've just been running a rogue branch for ages then. They're not even Leninists in Huddersfield, they just do what they want

I met someone in the Wakefield branch once, who lives only a few miles away from me, and we'd never heard of each other. Probably the one person I actually live nearest to in the whole party, and we never met, for years. No-one ever thought to put us in touch with each other. I thought that was mad at the time and I still do.

And lets look at this SWP thing again. To get a recall conference you need to get 20% of the membership to agree to it. That's a few thousand "members" to organise. How can branches actually go about doing this? What organisation, other than the CC, actually has the ability to pull together that amount of people? It's taken for granted that branches on their own can't actually organise independently amongst themselves 20% of the party, precisely because they don't have the means to do it. It's like an in built self defence mechanism.

That sort of thing is going to become impossible in the future with facebook and twitter people will be able to organised large groups very quickly, but right now that's besides the point these things were put in place for a reason - to secure the people at the top.

A lot of this is theoretical stuff too, ripped off from random anarchoid musings on the failings of Leninism and with a bit of Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy thrown in. So I know in a lot of cases groups at various points will have had a better internal democratic culture

20% of branches. Not membership.

 

[frogwoman]

And lets look at this SWP thing again. To get a recall conference you need to get 20% of the membership to agree to it.

Do you know how many it has to be in the SP?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Do you know how many it has to be in the SP?

Haha no, coz once I asked to see a copy of the party constitution and they looked at me like I'd just asked them to hide a gun. They never got back to me on that, funnily enough.

20% of branches. Not membership.

Aah ok. Just out of curiosity is that a figure they'll have difficulty reaching do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes. Can't see it happening.

 

[DaveCinzano]

trendy cafes and art spaces are the best places to meet not pubs

A fine legacy of the RCP

 

[The39thStep]

trendy cafes and art spaces are the best places to meet not pubs

Meeting in a pub on a Wednesday or Thursday to discuss politics , have a few beers was a social highlight for some members.They used to move the branch meetings to libraries on occassions to try and make it more business like,but we would just go to the pub earlier which used to mean people arriving late, and rushing through the meeting to go back to the pub for the real discussion.

 

[mk12]

We stopped having or weekly "Marxist Forums" in a pub because it might deter Muslims from attending. So we moved to another location and then Muslims...continued to stay away.

 

[cesare]

We stopped having or weekly "Marxist Forums" in a pub because it might deter Muslims from attending. So we moved to another location and then Muslims...continued to stay away.

You thought it was the venue deterring them?

 

[el-ahrairah]

IThey're not even Leninists in Huddersfield, they just do what they want

that made me laugh at my desk.

 

[sihhi]

We stopped having or weekly "Marxist Forums" in a pub because it might deter Muslims from attending. So we moved to another location and then Muslims...continued to stay away.

LOL
But remember what your man does, if 'Muslims' won't come to you, go to 'Muslims':

John Rees assisting the Egyptian Revolution.

 

[barney_pig]

I guess they've just been running a rogue branch for ages then. They're not even Leninists in Huddersfield, they just do what they want

I met someone in the Wakefield branch once, who lives only a few miles away from me, and we'd never heard of each other. Probably the one person I actually live nearest to in the whole party, and we never met, for years. No-one ever thought to put us in touch with each other. I thought that was mad at the time and I still do.

And lets look at this SWP thing again. To get a recall conference you need to get 20% of the membership to agree to it. That's a few thousand "members" to organise. How can branches actually go about doing this? What organisation, other than the CC, actually has the ability to pull together that amount of people? It's taken for granted that branches on their own can't actually organise independently amongst themselves 20% of the party, precisely because they don't have the means to do it. It's like an in built self defence mechanism.

That sort of thing is going to become impossible in the future with facebook and twitter people will be able to organised large groups very quickly, but right now that's besides the point these things were put in place for a reason - to secure the people at the top.

A lot of this is theoretical stuff too, ripped off from random anarchoid musings on the failings of Leninism and with a bit of Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy thrown in. So I know in a lot of cases groups at various points will have had a better internal democratic culture

Wakefield was the personal fiefdom of Howard and Sheila, whose determination to retain control included the destruction of entire branches (pontefract) and in one case the vicious bullying of a rape victim. Trotskyism's own braddocks

 

[Delroy Booth]

When was that?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Quite a lot of contact between the branches in my region.

Mine too - I'm far from being a hack but I've gotta say Delroy's being unfair there. We have regional discussion weekends in Yorkshire and we're actively encouraged to debate stuff with people from other branches in the region. Criticise by all means, fuck I'll probably agree with half of it, but this is way off target.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Mine too - I'm far from being a hack but I've gotta say Delroy's being unfair there. We have regional discussion weekends in Yorkshire and we're actively encouraged to debate stuff with people from other branches in the region. Criticise by all means, fuck I'll probably agree with half of it, but this is way off target.

That's funny coz I was in the party for about 2-3 years, still paying subs 'til a few months ago, and I never got invited to 'em. Infact the first I heard of it was here, now.

Perhaps the SP's got a wonderful culture of internal democracy and I just happened to miss out on it coz I wasn't paying attention at the meetings?

 

[two sheds]

What's a hack by the way? Or are there really that many journos involved with SWP?

Would the attempt to get a recall conference not count as factionalism by the way?

 

[SpineyNorman]

That's funny coz I was in the party for about 2-3 years, still paying subs 'til a few months ago, and I never got invited to 'em. Infact the first I heard of it was here, now.

Perhaps the SP's got a wonderful culture of internal democracy and I just happened to miss out on it coz I wasn't paying attention at the meetings?

Maybe.

I'm not trying to make out we've got some amazing internal democracy - there's still a lot more people who uncritically swallow the party line than I'm really comfortable with, but we do have regular regional get togethers, don't know how you missed out. They're usually in Leeds, about 3 or 4 times a year. And people from Huddersfield definitely go to them too.

 

[ReturnOfElfman]

We stopped having or weekly "Marxist Forums" in a pub because it might deter Muslims from attending. So we moved to another location and then Muslims...continued to stay away.

I can remember this coming up in my branch cos we had a reputation for being a bit too stereotypically working class and liked to drink a bit more than our more middle class and established branch in a city next to us. But when we tried going into the 'Muslim' community and had meetings in a community centre there, fuck all ever came from it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

What's a hack by the way? Or are there really that many journos involved with SWP?

Would the attempt to get a recall conference not count as factionalism by the way?

Someone who uncritically accepts the party line and constantly pushes it. Usually the same people who go on about how great everything is and how whatever it is you're currently working on is the next big thing.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Maybe.

I'm not trying to make out we've got some amazing internal democracy - there's still a lot more people who uncritically swallow the party line than I'm really comfortable with, but we do have regular regional get togethers, don't know how you missed out. They're usually in Leeds, about 3 or 4 times a year. And people from Huddersfield definitely go to them too.

There's "regional cadre schools" every now and then, although not 3 or 4 times a year. Never heard them described as discussion weekends. I went once. We had a brief meeting about "how to help build the party through the paper" my contribution was "why not have a regularly updated website that looks modern instead?" That didn't go down well btw

And who from Huddersfield goes? Give me some initials or PM me or something.

 

[cesare]

I can remember this coming up in my branch cos we had a reputation for being a bit too stereotypically working class and liked to drink a bit more than our more middle class and established branch in a city next to us. But when we tried going into the 'Muslim' community and had meetings in a community centre there, fuck all ever came from it.

Judging from the number of Muslims regularly frequenting pubs round here, I suspect that it may not have been the drinking at the heart of why it wasn't attracting Muslims.

 

[ReturnOfElfman]

There's "regional cadre schools" every now and then, although not 3 or 4 times a year. Never heard them described as discussion weekends. I went once. We had a brief meeting about "how to help build the party through the paper" my contribution was "why not have a regularly updated website that looks modern instead?" That didn't go down well btw

And who from Huddersfield goes? Give me some initials or PM me or something.

I've met a fair few of the Hudds SP from when I was knocking around with the anarchists there and I can remember SP people from outside the area coming in to support some stuff. I definitely remember someone from Wakefield being there as I was drinking in the pub with him.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I've met a fair few of the Hudds SP from when I was knocking around with the anarchists there and I can remember SP people from outside the area coming in to support some stuff. I definitely remember someone from Wakefield being there as I was drinking in the pub with him.

Huddersfield anarchists are brilliant best anarchists anywhere in the country bar none.