Before Theory
Active Member
Well, they have been spotted loitering around some of the colleges, trying to get down with the stoodents. So maybe all is not lost.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
Well, they have been spotted loitering around some of the colleges, trying to get down with the stoodents. So maybe all is not lost.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
As opposed to some of the more middle-class ISGers going to workplace picketlines and trying to get down with the workers?
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Exactly, i mean one has to have core principles/analysises which i think all marxists must share (surely) without letting subtle theoretical points getting in the way of action - especially since it seems that most of the disputations are about stuff that happened in russia rather than anything marx said.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
the idea of the vanguard party is to recruit all those members of the working class who stick two fingers up at management, all the fighters, all the mouthy cunts who fight their bosses whenever they get the chance. why would they think they know more than everyone in the class when these are the people they work with every day, the people they know best, the people they spend most of their life with?
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
they seem a pretty big presence around glasgow uni and they seem nice enough... was reading somewhere that their membership is up to 180 odd, that seems quite a jump from 39...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
SpineyNorman said:
Yep. Leninism done wrong again. Again.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I'm not defending him - if the ISG is what you say with "meetings in contemporary art centres" then its aims
will be hard to achieve.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
discokermit said:
To what? Why?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
I do think the whole Russia obsession is a pain in the arse to be honest - it's important because of some of the historical lessons it offers but the 1917 reenactment stuff gets right on my tits. As far as I'm concerned the most important thing is whether you agree with what they're doing and how they're doing it, especially at a local level. The rest is angels and pin heads most of the time.
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Did they not put on that radical independance conference?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I don't think they behave in a 100% "leninist" way no, I think especially since the open turn they have put quite a big emphasis on democratic accountability. And I think that this is probably a good thing because to be honest I'm quite dubious about following 100% the letter of lenin and trotsky as if nothing has changed since 1917, if nothing else, i am sure if they were alive today they would want things to be adapted to the conditions and not just done in the way that things were always done.
i don't know how things would become different if there was a real crisis in the SP though, I do hope that they would handle it better than the SWP.
there are different regimes of democratic centralism though. Like I think the SP's internal regime is very different to something like the sparts ...
i don't know how things would become different if there was a real crisis in the SP though, I do hope that they would handle it better than the SWP.
there are different regimes of democratic centralism though. Like I think the SP's internal regime is very different to something like the sparts ...
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
They are flashy, bright, enthusiastic, full colour A3 trots. Happy to have the big grandstand meetings/conventions but get them to go into working-class communities......
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Sorry, no idea what that means.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Yes, in one of the most expensive hotels in the city centre. As with their previous incarnations inviting big players on the left/nationalist left, but their orientation was and remains sadly to the shrinking base that is already being fought over.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
to whit? to woo?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
SpineyNorman said:
Classic sp economism. Theory is for my betters. Sir.
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Agreed - it is difficult to steer the right course between dealing with shit as it comes and ensuring that ones action is directed towards a real meaningful change that isn't saddled with the same shit that created the problem for one to fight against in the first place. Like, ive worked in community work for the last few years and what i liked about it was that there was less talking about stuff and people were actually going into the communities and trying to organise stuff. But then as i learned more about the policy frameworks that drive such projects and the rather uncritical assumptions that a lot of the practitioners hold (including myself!) i realised that one does need to dabble in a bit of theory. So theres my back story to reading capital ha!
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
You're being really fucking weird tonight. Again I've got no clue what you're on about. In fact it's precisely because I like to think things through for myself that for me the most important thing is whether I agree with what we're doing locally and how - and what informs my decision on that is my own engagement with theory and my own political perspectives.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Which is why Rosie Kane doing... a one woman show seems counter to that - best left off this thread though.
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Aye definately... ive spoken to one or two of them a couple of times and they do seem really enthusiasitic and energetic despite the problems of which sectors of society they engage with. Was thinking that maybe its because they are a new group that they have all this energy and enthusiasm - maybe thats what the purpose of splits really are - to get people excited about things again haha
Although i did feel like a bit of an old and useless bastard when reading somewhere them boasting about their membership being almost exclusivly under 30...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
To be honest I think there's a lot that needs to change in most trotskyist groups, and I'd include the SP in that. The SP doesn't demand that everyone believes what it says exactly although to be honest I have probably got too many disagreements to be asked to be on a committee or anything like that lol. However they haven't expelled me or anything like that and I doubt they would. I could be wrong but I can't really see it.
I do think the whole idea of the slate system to elect the leadership does need to be looked at again though. I don't see how it could make the party reformist or anything like that to elect the leadership in a different way when I would imagine the majority of people in the SP are all marxists.
I do think the whole idea of the slate system to elect the leadership does need to be looked at again though. I don't see how it could make the party reformist or anything like that to elect the leadership in a different way when I would imagine the majority of people in the SP are all marxists.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No they're not. And you've just seen what self declared marxists can do.frogwoman said:
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Not all CWI sections use the slate system.
Before Theory
Active Member
Ha ha - no, I doubt they'd have me, but it is interesting to watch new forces coming onto the stage. We need to replace the old farts like me who can't do all that activity any more without grumbling about our knees hurting.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
are they swallowing up a lot of ssp people or people that wouldve been drawn towards them before all the tommy sheridan stuff?
Isn't saying this type of thing, on a public message board, dangerous for a member of a Leninist party? Or is the SP really more tolerant and less genuinely Leninist than I thought?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
There's certainly some of the younger SSP/SSY ex/current members in and around ISG/CoR.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Got no idea, there's a few people I wouldn't necessarily want reading this, but I can't imagine I'd get in trouble for saying this stuff when lots of people in the party think the same thing and I've seen people with even more divergent positions (lol) on facebook and so on.
And I would also add that I would imagine that this SWP bullshit will probably trigger quite a big debate in organisations like the SP about this issue, at least I really hope so. It might be that it turns out that the general consensus is that there is nothing wrong and everything is fine but it still needs to be talked about.
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