emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
One Little point of order, the SWP joined before the SP left.
And you did leave at the high point of the SA, but the ultimate failure of the SA is of course down to the SWP, not the SP leaving.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
And you did leave at the high point of the SA, but the ultimate failure of the SA is of course down to the SWP, not the SP leaving.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Once the SWP rammed through their takeover, the Socialist Alliance ceased being an alliance in any meaningful sense. The little sects didn't care as they were primarily there to try to recruit from the SWP and SP rank and file. The "Left Unity" demographic, mostly nice, mostly useless and mostly concerned with having a nice, useless, political home didn't care either. But those bits of the SA with things to be doing outside the incestuous world of sectarian unity all left.
The decision to leave (by the SP, Red Action and the Preston councillors) didn't doom the SA. They left because the SA was doomed and the only question remaining was how much time and resources they would waste on it while the SWP ran it into the ground.
I really can't believe that we are still having this argument thirteen years later. No doubt there will still be people in Ireland in a decade's time complaining about the "sectarianism" of the SP leaving the ULA. Or blaming its failure on the refusal of the people who put up all of the resources in the first place (ie the SP and to a lesser but still substantial extent the SWP) to keep throwing more resources down the hole. Or ludicrously blaming "competitive recruitment" (what fucking recruitment). Few things are more resilient than the ability of the "Left Unity" demographic to piously denounce the actually existing groups for the fact that its raining.
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I think it is possible to see now, given the total abject failure of all projects based on what dennisr would (rightly) call the unity of left groups that the SA would have failed at some point between then and say 2005/2010 no matter what - the failure of such projects is inevitable given the mad approach to building political power that most of the groups and individuals drawn to them initially have.
Left Unity the organisation may not be based formally on the unity of some left groups, but as others have said it is still just the unity of left groups and the ex-members of past unity projects.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
uh huh, cos that's precisely what happened.
Still, buggered if I'm doing this yet again
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I think it is basically impossible to build a viable left organisation in the absence of a serious left movement of some kind.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Yes that is precisely what happened. But some people even thirteen years later refuse to learn any lessons from it.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
yes dear, of course
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
A convincing case, well made.
I think we need to focus on building popular self confidence and a popular vision of what could be achieved out of that, and both need to be focussed on peoples self identified needs and wants.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I'm not so bored as to repeat the discussion we have had about this for the tenth or twentieth time.
Tho I can well see why you'd rather talk about anything other than the joke that is TUSC
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-socialist-alliance.215581/
I think you and Nige said it all here
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
ta - tho even that one is version seven or eight I think
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I was at a meeting in the Teachers Club in Dublin a few weeks ago, held by the Left Forum on the subject of the need for a united left party. I was at a meeting in the same venue five years ago, held by the Campaign for an Independent Left on the subject of the need for a united left party. I was at an Irish Socialist Alliance meeting in the same venue a dozen years ago on the need for a united left party.
12 years ago, I was in the youngest 20% of the audience. Five years ago I was in the youngest 20% of the audience. A few weeks ago I was in the youngest 20% of the audience.
This is a demographic of nice, well meaning, decent people who are, unfortunately, incapable of learning. It's also a demographic hostile to the existing groups (or at least endlessly patronising about their "sectarianism") yet both created by those groups and permanently stuck in their world. Even when they self-consciously try to get around the existing groups, they end up producing just another such group but with the added ineffectuality and political softness characteristic of the milieu - like Left Unity.
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bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
The irony is you'll get away with that 'sectarian' take on the desire for unity. But if a swper said it they'd be stalin incarnate. One reason why this thread is now a little past it's sell by.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Slinking back in like a dog to his vomit. The arch rape denier returns
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
You know barney I have a c# bot my son wrote for his ICT class that writes better replies than you. The art of debate isn't dead it's just debased by some (not all) of the folk on here.
The only reason to occasionally check back in here is the people who manage a non ad hominem, vaguely cogent reply. Come on surely you don't speak to people like that in the real world?
The only reason to occasionally check back in here is the people who manage a non ad hominem, vaguely cogent reply. Come on surely you don't speak to people like that in the real world?
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SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
If that really is the case (not sure it is tbh) then it might be worth reflecting on why?
oskarsdrum
Active Member
Seems RS21 are keen to keep the brand distinct from any associations with the ISN. So since 2008 it's Counterfire, ISG, ISN and RS21 alongside the SWP, will the Kimberites one day lose pole position to Rees-Bambi? And, will we see another faction and split in 9-12 months time? RS21 have done some decent piecemeal improvements of some of the daftest orthodoxies so far but, whatever the ISN's faults it's the only one yet prepared to look Cliff in the eye (figuratively) and tell him how often he talked a lot of old nonsense.
Apologies if this has been mentioned before when he came up but some fascinating thoughts on value, states and state capitalism from Colin Barker here: https://sites.google.com/site/colinbarkersite/ -- 70s and late 90s section especially. Including highlighting a few shortcomings in state-cap with no obvious means of resolution! Callinicos suprisingly sharp on Cliff as well back in 1981, can't imagine anyone taking that line in recent years (?) http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/callinicos/1981/xx/wagelab-statecap.html .
Surprised you've not been touting this around given your previous acrimony to the ISO bolshie - http://externalbulletin.wordpress.com/ . Seems the culture isn't much more democratic there despite the undeniably endearing ability to acknowledge that new theoretical insights have indeed been possible post-1977.
Apologies if this has been mentioned before when he came up but some fascinating thoughts on value, states and state capitalism from Colin Barker here: https://sites.google.com/site/colinbarkersite/ -- 70s and late 90s section especially. Including highlighting a few shortcomings in state-cap with no obvious means of resolution! Callinicos suprisingly sharp on Cliff as well back in 1981, can't imagine anyone taking that line in recent years (?) http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/callinicos/1981/xx/wagelab-statecap.html .
Surprised you've not been touting this around given your previous acrimony to the ISO bolshie - http://externalbulletin.wordpress.com/ . Seems the culture isn't much more democratic there despite the undeniably endearing ability to acknowledge that new theoretical insights have indeed been possible post-1977.
I heard the other day that the RS21 types have serious reservations about one of the ISNers in particular. Could just be malicious gossip of course.
benedict
Well-Known Member
Out of interest do you make public statements about how women's experiences of rape are just "very bad sex" in the real world?
benedict
Well-Known Member
I love how the rape apologist gets to judge when a thread is past its sell by date. Why don't you stop the self-pity and get some fucking integrity.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
In my work everyday we encounter women who have been the victims of sexual assault. Scum who alibi and defend the attacker and belittle the experiences of the victim are not to be debated with.
dennisr
the acceptable face
My saint like patience shines out in that thread
Somebody slipped something in your tea
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Brocialismide?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You are getting a bit paranoid here. If you've been following the Left Unity thread, you'll see that "the desire for unity" of the left is not generally held in very high esteem in these parts. Nobody slags off the SWP for being less than keen on the new "Left Unity" party. There are more than enough good reasons to slag the off without adding bad reasons too.
Mustn't grumble
Member
i heard it was 3
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
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