SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

The prohibition on supporting England makes perfect sense in terms of cult membership.

Rule 1: isolate recruits from family and other ties.

it also makes sense in terms of glory-hunting.

 

[laptop]

glory-hunting

 

[Pickman's model]

supporting teams more likely to win the tournament, e.g. australia in the ashes.

 

[laptop]

supporting teams more likely to win the tournament, e.g. australia in the ashes.

Ah, the Rupert Murdoch principle

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, the Rupert Murdoch principle

abe

 

[KeeperofDragons]

I find that England fans tend to be among the most optimistic of fans, they always think that this time their team will win

 

[Pickman's model]

I find that England fans tend to be among the most optimistic of fans, they always think that this time their team will win

the triumph of hope over common sense and experience

 

[frogwoman]

Would I be allowed to support Wycombe? Also wtf business is it of a political party which football team I support?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Meanwhile, the ISN start reaching towards the logical endpoint of the "prostitution is just work" position and complain about an escorting job getting taken off Universal Jobmatch: http://internationalsocialistnetwor...stress-magpie-hey-job-centre-sex-work-is-work

"I am well aware that as sex workers go, I am extremely lucky; I was raised an upper middle class Jew in Midwestern America and have a good education. Moved by nothing worse than a wish to be the author of my own life, I left an interesting office job and a blossoming career to pursue hedonism and kink. I am not trafficked or coerced, and my earnings, after tax, are enough to pay the bills. I’m also lucky to live in the south west of England, a region that is home to a vibrant kink scene. Living and working here, I’ve made friends who step into and out of sex work as casually as they might pick up a second job as a barista."

Such rage. No words.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Meanwhile, the ISN start reaching towards the logical endpoint of the "prostitution is just work" position and complain about an escorting job getting taken off Universal Jobmatch: http://internationalsocialistnetwor...stress-magpie-hey-job-centre-sex-work-is-work

Comment on ISN to above article:

Of course we should support sex workers to every degree possible, but to say that 'sex work is work' and equate it to any other type of work, which is, as you point out, all based on coercion, is, I think, missing the point somewhat.

I would say that the right to bodily integrity is possibly the most absolutely fundamental right. If nothing else remains, at least you should be able to decide what happens to your own body.

If we recognise that any job is 'wage slavery' then we must logically also recognise that sex work is 'wage rape'. I would argue that even if we can't prevent slavery, we should at least try to prevent rape.

That's not to say I necessarily disagree with the actual position in the article above, but I feel this needs to be said.

 

[J Ed]

International Socialists for mandatory brothel workfare schemes!

 

[frogwoman]

Such rage. No words.

It's easy to pick up second job? Just like that eh?

 

[frogwoman]

Also does she not realized that as she chose to take this type of work leaving aside problems with sex work as opposed to other horrible shit jobs, having plenty of other options open and was able to move into a hippy type area her experiences may well be different to other sex workers (or others working two jobs as baristas and something else)

 

[frogwoman]

Also what is the kink scene? I've engaged in a bit of BDSM in my time but not sure what it is, is it the lifestylers? Like fetish clubs etc?

 

[frogwoman]

If you call your dad he can stop it all etc

 

[J Ed]

Also of course all this unthinking laissez faire advocating on behalf of the legalisation of buying sex ignores that 1) legalisation increases human trafficking/slavery 2) people involved in the sex trade have a professional interest in putting a positive spin on sex work, from talking to a friend who was once involved she said that this also convinced her t

I used to be in favour of decriminalisation of prostitution because I assumed that it was a similar argument to states taking a health based approach to drugs, but it just isn't the same. Decreased drug use follows the Portuguese model to the decriminalisation of drugs which is great and is something every country should adopt alongside the legalisation of cannabis but I think that the Nordic model on prostitution looks to be the best bad option.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Also of course all this unthinking laissez faire advocating on behalf of the legalisation of buying sex ignores that 1) legalisation increases human trafficking/slavery 2) people involved in the sex trade have a professional interest in putting a positive spin on sex work, from talking to a friend who was once involved she said that this also convinced her t

I used to be in favour of decriminalisation of prostitution because I assumed that it was a similar argument to states taking a health based approach to drugs, but it just isn't the same. Decreased drug use follows the Portuguese model to the decriminalisation of drugs which is great and is something every country should adopt alongside the legalisation of cannabis but I think that the Nordic model on prostitution looks to be the best bad option.

There's no "solution" though is there (short of eradicating poverty), just least bad options.

 

[emanymton]

Meanwhile, the ISN start reaching towards the logical endpoint of the "prostitution is just work" position and complain about an escorting job getting taken off Universal Jobmatch: http://internationalsocialistnetwor...stress-magpie-hey-job-centre-sex-work-is-work

I wonder if she (lets be fair here it is not necessarily they whole ISN arguing this) would be of the same opinion if a job was withdrawn because it paid less than the minimum wage, after all it would be a job like any other.

 

[tony.c]

Sport more and more clearly expresses the rottenness of a bourgeois society without a future

Cliff used to say that football was an escapism from the realities of life under a capitalist society, a modern form of 'the opiate of the masses'. He would recount how during the 1974/5 Portuguese revolutionary upheaval, attendances at the Lisbon football matches drastically fell as workers were engaging in political activity.

 

[Red Cat]

imo the reason there's an anti-sport streak in the left derives from a snarky subcultural hangover from the 60s... one which looked down its nose at 'mainstream' culture and defined itself exclusively in some kind of 'enlightened' other. unfortunately the left seems to lap up all that anti-social guff...

it also goes hand in hand with another factor which i think is the tendency of the left to pick up a sector of anti social types. specifically, a mediocre layer of the underachieving middle-class. people who decided they agreed with socialism because criticisms of capitalism gave them an excuse for their general failure to achieve what they expected of themselves in life. the sort who never quite fit in at school and never got picked for the sports teams, etc. radical 60s music and general social subcultures (like left politics?) can satiate these peoples' desire for 'cultured' labels to cement their superiority over all the oiks they grew up with and reify to themselves that they are as superior, innately, as they always secretly thought they were.

an awful lot of those folks in the SWP, occupying positions in social services, teaching, low level lecturing and other halfway professions.

btw i fucking despise teachers.

SWP was the wrong org for me.

Except that of course there are/were plenty of people in the SWP who play/ed sport.

And of course a left-wing organisation is going to think about sport, competition, ownership of sport in capitalist society and how that relates to national identity and political standpoints, it would be bizarre if it didn't.

As for your category of social misfits, I should think that being unhappy at school is unlikely to lead to much sport participation regardless of skill and feeling alienated is likely to lead to people to seek an explanation for that; there's no reason to be nasty about it. You do realise that the superior anti-social young people at school are unhappy don't you? That their superiority is a way of managing their loneliness?

And what is a halfway profession?

 

[Red Cat]

Cliff used to say that football was an escapism from the realities of life under a capitalist society, a modern form of 'the opiate of the masses'. He would recount how during the 1974/5 Portuguese revolutionary upheaval, attendances at the Lisbon football matches drastically fell as workers were engaging in political activity.

Well perhaps it is a form of escapism but I think a problem arises if you argue that it's only a form of escapism rather than an activity in which people feel and express a whole range of emotions normally expected to be guarded against, camaraderie, being part of a greater whole, delight in watching great skill etc. It doesn't have to be either or.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

My friend Lawrence has posted a piece about his (limited - one meeting!) experience of the SWP in Catford/Deptford in the early 90s:
http://englishmanintx.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/swp-confidential.html?spref=tw

The writing is probably only of passing interest and isn't directly about the current turmoil. I liked this cartoon he's done though:

 

[xslavearcx]

My friend Lawrence has posted a piece about his (limited - one meeting!) experience of the SWP in Catford/Deptford in the early 90s:
http://englishmanintx.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/swp-confidential.html?spref=tw

The writing is probably only of passing interest and isn't directly about the current turmoil. I liked this cartoon he's done though:

ha ha that was a great read - cheers !

 

[Das Uberdog]

Except that of course there are/were plenty of people in the SWP who play/ed sport.

no there weren't plenty, but i wasn't drawing a universal rule for all SWP members just pointing to a particular sad demographic.

And of course a left-wing organisation is going to think about sport, competition, ownership of sport in capitalist society and how that relates to national identity and political standpoints, it would be bizarre if it didn't.

and what actually happened is even more bizarre - applying the theory of revolutionary defeatism to the World Cup.

As for your category of social misfits, I should think that being unhappy at school is unlikely to lead to much sport participation regardless of skill and feeling alienated is likely to lead to people to seek an explanation for that; there's no reason to be nasty about it. You do realise that the superior anti-social young people at school are unhappy don't you? That their superiority is a way of managing their loneliness?

who on Earth wasn't miserable at school? much of mainstream culture is, imo, shit and boring btw... i thought so at school too. personally i can't stand football. but fundamentally here i think there are two different types of motivations for getting involved in left politics. one reason is that you like people, you think they're great and you hate to see them getting fucked over. the other is that you hate people, you think they're stupid and you think you're better than them. like or dislike of football isn't mutually exclusive to one or the other attitude, but the left itself theorises a defense of the latter attitude through its fetishisation of 'the counterculture' and all the niche, elite cultural snobbery that comes with that. rather than arguing specific and subjective cultural arguments it instead generalises a criticism of mass culture, and places itself in opposition.

the SWP had loads of lower middle-class failures, who as i said justified their laziness and mediocrity through criticisms of the capitalist system and plastered over their personal insecurities with scholastic, dogmatic bullshit. the sport argument we're talking about here is one such example. so many pot smoking part time lecturers, teachers and social service staff. local council bods. counsellors. etc.

And what is a halfway profession?

... as above, the kind of profession middle-class kids fall into out of convenience, having failed to actually become anything real. teaching and social work prime examples.

 

[J Ed]

btw i fucking despise teachers.

Why?

 

[Red Cat]

no there weren't plenty, but i wasn't drawing a universal rule for all SWP members just pointing to a particular sad demographic.



and what actually happened is even more bizarre - applying the theory of revolutionary defeatism to the World Cup.



who on Earth wasn't miserable at school? much of mainstream culture is, imo, shit and boring btw... i thought so at school too. personally i can't stand football. but fundamentally here i think there are two different types of motivations for getting involved in left politics. one reason is that you like people, you think they're great and you hate to see them getting fucked over. the other is that you hate people, you think they're stupid and you think you're better than them. like or dislike of football isn't mutually exclusive to one or the other attitude, but the left itself theorises a defense of the latter attitude through its fetishisation of 'the counterculture' and all the niche, elite cultural snobbery that comes with that. rather than arguing specific and subjective cultural arguments it instead generalises a criticism of mass culture, and places itself in opposition.

the SWP had loads of lower middle-class failures, who as i said justified their laziness and mediocrity through criticisms of the capitalist system and plastered over their personal insecurities with scholastic, dogmatic bullshit. the sport argument we're talking about here is one such example. so many pot smoking part time lecturers, teachers and social service staff. local council bods. counsellors. etc.



... as above, the kind of profession middle-class kids fall into out of convenience, having failed to actually become anything real. teaching and social work prime examples.

So you're in the thinking people are great category, right?

 

[krink]

Also what is the kink scene?

i thought it was all about me for a second

 

[muscovyduck]

Also what is the kink scene?

The Kinks split up in the 90s, it's mainly just small scale tribute bands now.

 

[frogwoman]

The Kinks split up in the 90s, it's mainly just small scale tribute bands now.

 

[mutley]

Is it just me or is das Uberdog sounding like a daily mail letter writer?