SWP expulsions and squabbles

[benedict]

Does that include Stack? I haven't seen the evidence, he did and he thought rape probably hadn't occurred but harassment had. I guess we're back at the integrity of the people on the dc question and whether folk like me are wrong to trust them. Do I deny that MS could ever commit rape? No that would be an absurd thing to say but I have enough respect for the integrity of the people on the dc to believe that if he really had they would have had the balls to admit that. If a new dc met tomorrow and found him guilty of rape that would settle it for me too.

Respect, integrity, balls. Can you not see thing in more complex terms?

 

[frogwoman]

you still think martin smith is innocent??

what the actual fuck

 

[Scribbling S]

If you were actually running a revolutionary party that cared about (1) principles (2) Justice and (3) it's own reputation in the world (as opposed to internal reputation of the leaders of a sect) , then the fact that Pat Stack thought Martin was guilty of harassment would have been enough to have him stripped of all party roles - "our leading member is only guilty of harassment, nothing worse" is a rotten position for a socialist party to be in. But the whole apparatus did not want to hear the truth - witness the really grotesque attempt not to hear the second complaint, along with DC member Rhetta Moran's crazed pronouncement.

 

[emanymton]

Totally agree with that passage from the GI and yes empty abstractions need to be made concrete and that's what Kapital is all about but his starting point is the abstractions, is a theoretical stance, he knows you can never operate without one. But I guess this thread isn't the place to address this stuff fully

On your question no I really don't think that's what's going on (shock I know!) There are people who seem committed to the belief he could have done no wrong. I don't understand them despite having been a huge admirer of him myself. Surely the official position is clear enough, if he hadn't gone and left he would have a real case to answer, there is some damning stuff that needed answering. Mind you he would get a chance to answer it as well which is where the cc statement is totally right. But no nobody is above any process and nobody is worth this crisis. But as I've tried to argue, maybe not convincingly for anyone here, but I have tried, I don't accept that the crisis is only about what went on between three people.

If Smith had left the SWP when W first made a complaint of sexual harassment do you still think the party would ended up in any faction fights this year?

I guess it is possible that some Smith admirers may have caused trouble at the time.

There clearly are some political differences emerging but whereas you seem to think that these were all preexisting before the current crises, I think many of them have been caused by the crises as many members at seeing the SWP in a new light.

 

[emanymton]

Does that include Stack? I haven't seen the evidence, he did and he thought rape probably hadn't occurred but harassment had. I guess we're back at the integrity of the people on the dc question and whether folk like me are wrong to trust them.

What even Retta?

I have said it before it I cannot understand how that women got anywhere near a disputes committee, I think it speaks volumes about the judgment of leading SWP members.

 

[laptop]

Very likely it's featured in one of the past 15,515 posts: but does anyone have links to the documents the SWP (or IS) put out arguing against women organising as women, in the 1970s?

Nails, meet coffin.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What even Retta?

I have said it before it I cannot understand how that women got anywhere near a disputes committee

Clearly, you fail to Respect and Honour Democratic Centralism! She is qualified by virtue of being a Revolutionary Socialist in bold opposition to Formal Bourgeois Morality.

Hope this helps.

 

[butchersapron]

Very likely it's featured in one of the past 15,515 posts: but does anyone have links to the documents the SWP (or IS) put out arguing against women organising as women, in the 1970s?

Nails, meet coffin.

The articles on women's liberation here link to the main relevant ones in the discussions of them.

 

[laptop]

The articles on women's liberation here link to the main relevant ones in the discussions of them.

Ah, yes, I think it's the IBs leading up to the closure of Women's Voice that I'm half-remembering.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

If Smith had left the SWP when W first made a complaint of sexual harassment do you still think the party would ended up in any faction fights this year?

I guess it is possible that some Smith admirers may have caused trouble at the time.

There clearly are some political differences emerging but whereas you seem to think that these were all preexisting before the current crises, I think many of them have been caused by the crises as many members at seeing the SWP in a new light.

Yes I think they would. Call me a hard old bastard but you only need to look at the musings of much of the opposition on Facebook this last year about women's voice, the changing working class and the rest to know that a break was in the offing.

edited: because of what I was told in confidence last night

 

[Brainaddict]

because MS had some very bad sex

Wow. What an arsehole you are.


Edited because, well, because.

 

[belboid]

MS had some very bad sex

wow. That's by far the cuntiest thing you've ever said on here.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

edited because it turns out I knew shit

 

[Belushi]

ffs bolshie

 

[bolshiebhoy]

edited because it turns out I knew shit

 

[Brainaddict]

The one thing nobody has ever said was it was forced. we've discussed this mans sex life until we're blue on here and the rape thing is liberally thrown but never because it was forced.

I wouldn't ask for you to be banned for being a cunt bolshie. There are lots on here and lots in life and we all have to deal with them. But if you want to discuss the details of rape accusations I suggest you think again. This is not the place. People have been traumatised and they too have access to the internet. Stop now.

 

[muscovyduck]

the rape thing is liberally thrown but never because it was forced.

wow

 

[frogwoman]

do you expect any young women with a critique of capitalism to join your organisation after coming out with shit like that bolshie?

"martin smith had some very bad sex"?

first of all, rape isn't sex. secondly, your party held a rape case and then tried to cover it up, and treated the women worse than the bourgeois courts would have, asking if they liked a drink etc.

The left has a problem with sexism, do you really think anyone is going to look at the SWP now and think "yeah this is an organisation I'd really like to join"? Some very bad sex, wtf is wrong with you?

 

[benedict]

No lets talk turkey, it's been so polite but nobody wants to do that. which allows us the rest of us to be called rape deniers when nobody seems to have evidence for that. He was an arse clearly, possibly an harassing arse. Rapist?

I suggest you take a walk, Bolshie. Get some fresh air. Absorb the beauty of nature.

This is not a discussion we're going to have.

 

[belboid]

.

 

[andysays]

.

Oops, you did it again...

 

[belboid]

can the rest of us agree to ignore this bullshit, and not give him the vile argument he wants

 

[benedict]

So what did people think of the Weekly Worker's splash this week? Strange choice, to have put Cliff on front with the take-off of Shelley's Ozymandias. Cliff's empire has fallen all right. But does this mark the definitive death of the style of socialist politics he represented? The family tree stemming from the post-war Group gets ever more branched, the groupuscules smaller and more irrelevant, yet there seems to be no new paradigm on the horizon unfortunately.

Anyway, I thought the WW might have gone for something simple and classic like this gem:

 

[articul8]

Bad sexual ettiquette?

 

[Once red]

The horrible, horrible shit we've had because MS had some very bad sex was only the catalyst. It was always going to happen. I honestly (there you go pickman!) believe that.

Bad sex? If you were my 'comrade' and you'd said that to me in the pub you'd be on the floor.

 

[SLK]

Yes I think they would. Call me a hard old bastard but you only need to look at the musings of much of the opposition on Facebook this last year about women's voice, the changing working class and the rest to know that a break was in the offing. The horrible, horrible shit we've had because MS had some very bad sex was only the catalyst. It was always going to happen. I honestly (there you go pickman!) believe that.

Fucking hell mate. You don't mean this.

 

[emanymton]

Yes I think they would. Call me a hard old bastard but you only need to look at the musings of much of the opposition on Facebook this last year about women's voice, the changing working class and the rest to know that a break was in the offing. The horrible, horrible shit we've had because MS had some very bad sex was only the catalyst. It was always going to happen. I honestly (there you go pickman!) believe that.

I have more time for you than most of here, but are you seriously trying to argue that real rape has to involve force?

Rape as you well know is about consent and not necessarily about force or violence.

But if you what to be honest about what we think happened despite the fact that none of us on here are privy to the facts.

My suspicious is this: edited out

 

[SLK]

That's pretty much what I think emanymton, but I think we shouldn't be discussing this. I'm shocked at bolshie.

 

[mutley]

So fucking glad I've left reading the shit that BB is arguing. Meanwhile, the cc are desperately trying to stop some key trade union militants resigning but with no success: they're resigning on fb on about an hourly basis. That NUT fraction will have its work cut out. Meanwhile those who have departed are starting to discuss - what next?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Fucking hell mate. You don't mean this.

edited: because I did but the facts turn out to be a lot more complex and nasty than publicly revealed. I'm appalled at the facts and myself for not reading between the lines quicker.