SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpineyNorman]

Totally agree with that passage from the GI and yes empty abstractions need to be made concrete and that's what Kapital is all about but his starting point is the abstractions, is a theoretical stance, he knows you can never operate without one. But I guess this thread isn't the place to address this stuff fully

On your question no I really don't think that's what's going on (shock I know!) There are people who seem committed to the belief he could have done no wrong. I don't understand them despite having been a huge admirer of him myself. Surely the official position is clear enough, if he hadn't gone and left he would have a real case to answer, there is some damning stuff that needed answering. Mind you he would get a chance to answer it as well which is where the cc statement is totally right. But no nobody is above any process and nobody is worth this crisis. But as I've tried to argue, maybe not convincingly for anyone here, but I have tried, I don't accept that the crisis is only about what went on between three people.

I think the last sentence is correct but not for the reasons you'd give.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

It doesn't alienate people I want to communicate with, only moralistic cunts who like to mimic whatever the US left does (and ignore that while in the US cunt is a gendered insult aimed mainly at women in the UK it just isn't).

Stereotyping again, Spiney. I think they're wrong to take it so seriously, but there are plenty of otherwise good non-moralistic people who do see the UK usage (which is normally applied to men here) as gendered, only in a different way - i.e. using part of the female anatomy as a term of abuse.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Stereotyping again, Spiney. I think they're wrong to take it so seriously, but there are plenty of otherwise good non-moralistic people who do see the UK usage (which is normally applied to men here) as gendered, only in a different way - i.e. using part of the female anatomy as a term of abuse.

Which is different from dick (which actually is a gendered term of abuse, beloved of the kind of people who don't like the term 'cunt') cock, nob, tit, etc. in what way? Sometimes stereotypes can be a useful guide, as in this case cos I've never met any of the people you describe here.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I don't think you're rape apologists. I think you're rape deniers.

Does that include Stack? I haven't seen the evidence, he did and he thought rape probably hadn't occurred but harassment had. I guess we're back at the integrity of the people on the dc question and whether folk like me are wrong to trust them. Do I deny that MS could ever commit rape? No that would be an absurd thing to say but I have enough respect for the integrity of the people on the dc to believe that if he really had they would have had the balls to admit that. If a new dc met tomorrow and found him guilty of rape that would settle it for me too. I haven't seen the evidence, nobody on this thread has, well maybe some lurkers, and so we have to either rely on the people who did or not. I agree that's not an obvious choice to make and of course it's coloured by your opinion of the people involved in the process.

 

[Once red]

How could you have been a huge admirer of Martin Smith bolshie? I only have a vague memory of him from Marxism team one year but he was a man so dearly in love with himself even then! And bossy. - if I have the right person- ponytail? Meetings about music?
I agree the crisis is about more than three people- there's been an ongoing crisis for a good decade.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

That doesn't surprise me.

I think peeps outside the ISN should know that unless you are in the right loop you never find out what's going on. Take the last two weeks. Even now the ISN has not said who has left, who has resigned from the Steering Cttee. or from any other post. We have a website, an emailed bulletin, but nothing said. Just a few elliptical, vague articles posted on the site with no informative & clear statements by anyone in the 'discussion' threads. It's worse than Plato's cave. We need an Aristotelian faction in the ISN, some straight talking: grab the essence & get to the heart of things, the root of things, be radical.

Does anyone know who has left? Me Olde? The Principal? Tommy-Tommy?

And SLK, where were the details posted of the Jan conf.?

To be fair, Jara, though I agree with much of what you say & think banning you was ridiculous, I don't think the ISN has much more clue than anyone else who's left or is planning to leave in the latest exodus. They're not exactly flavour of the month with the new-wave of ship-jumpers, who have their own loop from which the ISN are largely excluded.

 

[Once red]

Does that include Stack? I haven't seen the evidence, he did and he thought rape probably hadn't occurred but harassment had. I guess we're back at the integrity of the people on the dc question and whether folk like me are wrong to trust them. Do I deny that MS could ever commit rape? No that would be an absurd thing to say but I have enough respect for the integrity of the people on the dc to believe that if he really had they would have had the balls to admit that. If a new dc met tomorrow and found him guilty of rape that would settle it for me too. I haven't seen the evidence, nobody on this thread has, well maybe some lurkers, and so we have to either rely on the people who did or not. I agree that's not an obvious choice to make and of course it's coloured by your opinion of the people involved in the process.

Oh honestly! If he really had they would have had the balls to admit that- did you really say that?!

 

[SpineyNorman]

Does that include Stack? I haven't seen the evidence, he did and he thought rape probably hadn't occurred but harassment had. I guess we're back at the integrity of the people on the dc question and whether folk like me are wrong to trust them. Do I deny that MS could ever commit rape? No that would be an absurd thing to say but I have enough respect for the integrity of the people on the dc to believe that if he really had they would have had the balls to admit that. If a new dc met tomorrow and found him guilty of rape that would settle it for me too. I haven't seen the evidence, nobody on this thread has, well maybe some lurkers, and so we have to either rely on the people who did or not. I agree that's not an obvious choice to make and of course it's coloured by your opinion of the people involved in the process.

The DC that was composed of his mates said he hadn't committed rape and that's good enough for you? And they didn't seem keen to admit anything while they spent two years trying to cover the allegations up.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Which is different from dick (which actually is a gendered term of abuse, beloved of the kind of people who don't like the term 'cunt') cock, nob, tit, etc. in what way? Sometimes stereotypes can be a useful guide, as in this case cos I've never met any of the people you describe here.

I really don't mean this in a patronising way, Spiney, but I think it might be a generational thing. Probably quite correctly, the term has lost a lot of its perceived power over the last few decades (my sons use it all the time & defend it in much the same way as you), but lots of perfectly OK people of my age genuinely do have a big problem with it.

 

[barney_pig]

How could you have been a huge admirer of Martin Smith bolshie? I only have a vague memory of him from Marxism team one year but he was a man so dearly in love with himself even then! And bossy. - if I have the right person- ponytail? Meetings about music?
I agree the crisis is about more than three people- there's been an ongoing crisis for a good decade.

Am man who you respected and admired so much you weren't a member of the swp the entire time he was in office and only rejoined after his fall

 

[Oisin123]

... I have enough respect for the integrity of the people on the dc to believe that if he really had they would have had the balls to admit that.

Firstly, it was always going to be 'not proven' by the way it was set up. His word versus hers. What proof could they have asked for, in order to find him guilty?
Secondly, we have since heard from the DC in print. Taking Rhetta's contribution to IB3, we can see that she thinks that she is free from bias because through decades of self-formation she has adpoted the standpoint of the proletariat. But believing this means she has to believe Martin, since he has the same track record of dedication to the cause of the proletariat.
Thirdly, they were all his friends.

So its not a question of trusting anyone's integrity, it's a flawed set up. And the subsequent carry on to try to avoid admitting this was a disgrace.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I really don't mean this in a patronising way, Spiney, but I think it might be a generational thing. Probably quite correctly, the term has lost a lot of its perceived power over the last few decades (my sons use it all the time & defend it in much the same way as you), but lots of perfectly OK people of my age genuinely do have a big problem with it.

Why would that be patronising? And do you now agree that it isn't sexist?

 

[tony collins]

How could you have been a huge admirer of Martin Smith bolshie?

I've never understood people's admiration for Smith. When he was industrial organiser, as an RMT tube worker I had a lot of dealings with him. He was a bully. He really tried to find people's weaknesses and really pick on them. He seemed to delight in undermining women (I said this long before the rape allegations, so it's not a hindsight realisation) - he stood up at a packed Marxism meeting in 2003/4 and really started belittling this older woman who was being cautious about things in the RMT. She was clearly in real distress at the way he was talking about her (and pointing at her, to make sure everyone could see her), but he didn't stop, and then kept saying "I'm only joking, only joking, you know I love you, I'm only joking". Robust debate is fine, but you don't have to humiliate people to make your point.

He did the same thing to someone who was against the Respect split, really picking on her at an aggregate meeting in 2008, coming close to her while he responded to her and jabbing his finger right up against her. Sure, he picked on blokes too, but he did seem to enjoy bullying women more.

Politically, his actions contradicted the "rank and file" stuff the party had us doing. His discussions were always full of "I'm meeting crow next week" and meeting exec committees; he really pushed for us to take full-time union positions in the RMT. Dave Renton has written about this change, so it's not just something I noticed.

He did seem to have some strengths; he had an ability to summarise people's feelings, and that was useful to a new guy like me. But I guess all you need to know is that he was one of the biggest liars throughout the whole Respect split. He was the one who said "the party will go nuclear" (I was there), he was the one who spread the worst of the smears about people. He was the one who organised the expulsions, "lost" emails, lied about sending letters etc. to make sure people couldn't raise complaints at the conference. He was the one who suspended a woman but wouldn't allow it to be reported at the 2008 conference.

None of this has anything to do with his guilt or innocence of later accusations. But the guy is a thug and a bully; I can imagine he has a certain amount of charm, and I can also imagine that he can make younger women feel intimidated.

(edit - typos)

 

[tony collins]

If a new dc met tomorrow and found him guilty of rape that would settle it for me too.

bolshiebhoy, after all this time you still think that it's acceptable for a political party's "disputes committee" to find a member "guilty of rape"? You've learned nothing. You understand nothing.

 

[richwill72]

I am Dave Nellist in disguise. This is, you may care to note, a public forum.

Who the fuck are you?

 

[Once red]

Also on admiring Smith, all this 'leading comrade' and 'great men' stuff is another thing I always found weird about the SWP. Maybe it's a man crush thing? Some comrades are more equal, those comrades are male usually. And women, leading women, in the party being humiliated openly by their super shagging partners. Didn't they pack Judith Orr off on a set of 'women's lib' meetings around the time the Smith stuff came to light. Whyever did she agree to that?! Sad.

 

[Once red]

I am Dave Nellist in disguise. This is, you may care to note, a public forum.

Quite the antagonist still then?!

 

[richwill72]

Bit of a stretch to suggest that it's about massaging the SP Leadership's egos though, especiaLLy with the 7 votes etc - if it was just about the SP standing they'd stand as sociaList aLternative, as they have in Coventry for fuck knows how Long - that's why I'm curious as to who this new poster is.

I was in the SWP for a few years, so may be guilty of observing events with a certain degree of cynicism.

 

[muscovyduck]

My barney with the SP comrades last night, which I now feel rather foolish about and for which I apologise insofaras I was at fault (which I don't think I was completely), really wasn't occasioned either by a sectarian hangover from the SWP or even by seeing them through a one-size-fits-all lens based on my experience of the SWP, so much as by what I perceived at the time as a disproportionately aggressive response to a few rather flippant & snarky (& probably unfair) remarks I made about their organisation. That did, I'm afraid, remind me of some SWPers' reactions to similarly trivial goads. I'd had a rotten day & a few beers to forget about it & they got my dander up. I'll try & make sure it doesn't happen again. The last thing I want to do is to descend into the puerile (& at times sexist!) name calling that some of your contributors indulge in.

Not sure that counts as an apology. You've basically made it obvious that you're apologising out the good of your heart rather than because you actually think you were at fault.

But yeah I'm not a fan of the slate system either. I know vaguely why I think it's a bad idea but I can't articulate it well enough to talk about ot in real life. I guess that minor differences split any vote and no one's going to have the time to research the politics, work, etc of everyone on the slate.

I would have put more of the quote in bold to highlight my point but my phone's being awkward and it doesn't really matter anyway

 

[richwill72]

Quite the antagonist still then?!

Actually i did once have a twitter spat with Dave Nellist on tje subject of TUSC being a load of shite, he seemed to think it was about to turn a corner. Clearly with a name like The Trade Union and Socialist Coalition there is no way whatsoever it could fail.

 

[Trotter]

Socialist Worker reports that there were 540 delegates at the SWP Conference. With a delegate ratio of 1-10 that would imply a membership of 5,400 - less than the 7000+ claimed in the internal bulletins.

You might expect a high proportion of these members would have attended the pre-Conference aggregates. After all, there was only one aggregate per district in the pre-Conference period and we were fighting for the future of the SWP.

The faction collected numbers of comrades attending each aggregate. The estimate was a total across the country of 970. This compares to the 1300 who attended the aggregates before the Special Conference in March. That's a drop of over 25%. This reflect the resignations and disaffection before the Conference.

Delegate ratios therefore become more interesting. The CC resisted all calls for proportionality - so it was frequently winner takes all in the aggregates. The faction had about 80 delegates at the Conference. The faction had 300+ supporters most of whom attended the aggregates, say 240. So the faction had a delegate ration of 1:3. That means there were 730 loyalists who got 460 delegates, a ratio of 1:1.6

Most of the faction have or will leave the SWP. That leaves an aggregate attendance - active members - of no more than 800. There will be other members who remain as passive supporters, but it is now difficult for the SWP to claim it is the largest organisation on the far left in Britain.

 

[killer b]

Actually i did once have a twitter spat with Dave Nellist on tje subject of TUSC being a load of shite, he seemed to think it was about to turn a corner. Clearly with a name like The Trade Union and Socialist Coalition there is no way whatsoever it could fail.

'the left' does seem to be somewhat lacking in snappy names these days. which is definitely it's biggest problem.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Why would that be patronising? And do you now agree that it isn't sexist?

Why would that be patronising? Well, I obviously didn't think it was, but (unlike you seemingly) I do care about being misunderstood & offending other people inadvertently.

Do I now agree that the 'c' word isn't sexist? Although I admit my original complaint didn't make it plain, I think I've now made it obvious that I don't think words have any power in themselves & so can't be described as anything-ist. It's all in how they're used & understood. And if you persist in using a word that you know a lot of women (rightly or wrongly) will be hurt or offended by, & you don't give a shit & think they're all moralistic idiots, well, then, I'm sure a lot of people would interpret that as sexist.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Not sure that counts as an apology. You've basically made it obvious that you're apologising out the good of your heart rather than because you actually think you were at fault.

But yeah I'm not a fan of the slate system either. I know vaguely why I think it's a bad idea but I can't articulate it well enough to talk about ot in real life. I guess that minor differences split any vote and no one's going to have the time to research the politics, work, etc of everyone on the slate.

I would have put more of the quote in bold to highlight my point but my phone's being awkward and it doesn't really matter anyway

No, I'm genuinely (though not completely) apologising for mouthing off about something I didn't know enough about. That seems a fairly common failing in these parts!

 

[Scribbling S]

now it's all over a lot of us feel the need to get it out of our systems. i certainly do.

anyway, my membership was brief compared to some of the others here, i joined in '88.

i had seen 'young frank', a shy sixteen year old in a tweed jacket and black jeans selling s.w. at wolvo train station on a friday evening....

i'm too tired to finish it. anyway, that's the start. tomorrow maybe i'll do part two, oisin123, his part in my downfall.

Still waiting for part 2, or did I miss it ?

 

[ska invita]

'the left' does seem to be somewhat lacking in snappy names these days. which is definitely it's biggest problem.

Its not for lack of trying. I liked it when Left Unity changed its name to Left Unity.

 

[benedict]

Oh dear talk about not addressing what someone actually said. Empiricism is pretending you don't have a theoretical framework and imagining you're just about the facts, the facts and nothing but the facts. That's never true and as I was addressing someone in the IS tradition and was talking about people in that tradition then yes that would be the theoretical framework that was relevant. I do however realise that Marx hadn't heard of Cliff, thanks for that. The longer this crisis has gone on the less anyone outside the SWP seems to want to even try and understand what 'loyalists' are saying, let alone address it properly. I understand that's cause you all think the game is up, those of us on this side are all evil rape apologists and generally nasty people who are headed for sectarian isolation and so we don't need even addressing properly. Which is totally fine online and it's not as if we're not used to being hated by all sorts of people but I seriously don't think that approach is going to wash in day to day work in the real world.

Well yes. Thing is I immediately noticed your confusion around Marx's method but knew there are plenty around here who could respond better than I. Talking of which, why don't you respond to one of those posts rather than what is I'm sure we both agree my less erudite response?

Anyway, the point is for you the proper method seems to be you start with the IS tradition, accommodate new facts, and end with the IS tradition. Anything else is eclectic. This is what you said.

And this thing about how we're all being so mean to SWPers doesn't really wash, does it.

 

[Oisin123]

A friend of mine was a bus worker with a Jehova's Witness in his garage. Just for the hell of it, he set himself the goal of de-programming the JW and would argue every day in the canteen. After a year or so, my friend achieved his goal. I kind of feel the same way about bolshie.

 

[killer b]

defenstration, no deprogramming.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

A friend of mine was a bus worker with a Jehova's Witness in his garage. Just for the hell of it, he set himself the goal of de-programming the JW and would argue every day in the canteen. After a year or so, my friend achieved his goal. I kind of feel the same way about bolshie.

Have you got a couple of decades to spare?