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SWP expulsions and squabbles

I don't know if it was a relationship that went wrong, a psychologically coercive relationship or something ten time worse. none of us do. But one things for sure, if you say rape on this thread you'll get benefit of the doubt, if you assume anything less you're the fucking devil incarnate. I really wish we could have an answer that made everyone happy but the best we have is the process that was followed. Possibly there's no end to this shit in that case.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
I don't know if it was a relationship that went wrong, a psychologically coercive relationship or something ten time worse. none of us do. But one things for sure, if you say rape on this thread you'll get benefit of the doubt, if you assume anything less you're the fucking devil incarnate. I really wish we could have an answer that made everyone happy but the best we have is the process that was followed. Possibly there's no end to this shit in that case.
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Go to bed. This is not you.
 
I will mate but before I do I have to reiterate there is a difference between harassment and rape (physical or not). It's an important distinction and we are at least allowed to question whether what happened was one or the other. I wish I didn't have to say that cause both acts are repulsive. But you know what one is a fuck load worse.
 
Have to inform folks B/B's dreadful comments are now flying around the web, not yet the feminist groups, but they will hear soon enough.
 
I have god forbid me, like everyone else I have an opinion about something I have no right to. Problem is mine doesn't tally with the majority on here.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
I will mate but before I do I have to reiterate there is a difference between harassment and rape (physical or not). It's an important distinction and we are at least allowed to question whether what happened was one or the other. I wish I didn't have to say that cause both acts are repulsive. But you know what one is a fuck load worse.
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at this point I don't think anybody associated with the SWP has grounds to do these questions. Look at how the handling of this has gone. One of the things I return to again and again in my head is that the woman in question went to the Party before the bourgeois courts. And the (utterly insane) internal process did her right over. The trust and loyalty led to going before the Party rather than outsiders and look what happened. Thats not defensible


all this 'women and children lie' the mass exodus, the crisis that has gone further than the case itself- these should be of indicator ffs. This isn't just 'we're the swappies everyone hates us and will use any stick'. Your party is heamorraghing members and support precisely because of how this was handled
 
My bottom line through all this has been Stack's submission to the dc report session. I trust him, he said probably no rape but probably harassment. If all these people who are going mental know facts that prove that opinion wrong then fine but what the fuck is the average joe who tries to go by the principle that not everyone on the dc was a complete dick to think?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
My bottom line through all this has been Stack's submission to the dc report session. I trust him, he said probably no rape but probably harassment. If all these people who are going mental know facts that prove that opinion wrong then fine but what the fuck is the average joe who tries to go by the principle that not everyone on the dc was a complete dick to think?
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First, Stack was under pressure and was 1 to many. And then had to say that to hundreds. As you know.
Second, Stack said not proven, as did the rest of the DC. Why have you made the leap to "didn't".
Third, Stack resigned from the SWP over it.

Why did he do that? Is this movementism?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
My bottom line through all this has been Stack's submission to the dc report session. I trust him, he said probably no rape but probably harassment. If all these people who are going mental know facts that prove that opinion wrong then fine but what the fuck is the average joe who tries to go by the principle that not everyone on the dc was a complete dick to think?
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I too have a lot of confidence in Pat. But the bottom line is that he was involved in a fundamentally flawed process (flawed for reasons we all know, so I'm not going to repeat them for nth time) and even his judgement can't be trusted in this business.

As I have pointed out before the leadership of the SWP have used the question of confidentiality very hypocritically as a smokescreen for their cover up. They have shown zero interest in protecting W and X in this whole horrible business and the question of confidentiality has been used basically to protect first Delta and then their own interests. There must be someone out there who has access to the documentation relating to the case. S/he should publish it, while keeping the names of the two women secret. This won't convince loyalists like "bad sex" BB, Rhetta, Mad Maxine etc, but it will allow the rest of us - inside or outside the SWP - to come to our own conclusions.
 
The problem is exactly that , we can all usually only go on what is publicly out there. stack says he had to resign over the way the women were treated by the process, by the claims about their integrity etc. As far as I can see he hasn't explicitly said he and others knew they were raped and covered it up. Now someone who shall remain nameless and isn't anyone obvious shared some detail with me tonight that If true would very strongly suggest everything I've assumed about the first case at least is bollox and that what I'm assuming here is stack's position may not be at all. I have almost zero emotional attachment to the position I'm arguing, I am completely reliant on the public info on this case, crucially what stack and unwin and others said and we've had that in front of us since roughly page 10 of this thread. As I trust the person who shared this new detail with me tonight and also trust the people who've essentially sworn blind to me that the truth is closer to what stack originally said (or bearing in mind what slk said, fair enough, what i took him to imply really bloody strongly in the hope that if it had been otherwise he wouldn't have said what he said) I have no option but to shut up and not say another word on this matter. As long as it was all about matters of public knowledge I could and did argue for what I thought those publicly known facts suggested. I know my interpretation of those facts puts me in a tiny minority but it was the only one I could come to without believing the worst of some very decent people. But this latest revelation, which clearly I can't and never would reveal leaves me floored and unsure of pretty much anything. so I'm just gonna shut the fuck up which I'm sure will be a relief to most. I know getting me to do that is why the person has told me what they've told me but that doesn't mean I don't believe them in fact Ive been sat here getting more and more depressed since they contacted me four hours ago, so to him/her I say I hear you and I'm out of here.No doubt someone will ask why it took a personal intervention to change my mind but all I can say is if I'm not being lied to tonight then we have all been lied to by a lot of people and the public 'facts' I thought I was operating off of are a joke. There may be an equally devastating fact for the defence which I haven't heard but to be honest after the damning thing I heard last night god only knows what the fuck that could be and the point is we'll probably never know now. All I know is this one piece of information has floored me, sickened me and as of the end of this post totally silenced me on this subject.

Maybe as you say karmickameleon some day this can all be properly cleared up but that's probably less and less likely without causing even more damage to the women in the case. So we're left with this huge grey zone of doubt (and with hindsight drawing any conclusions from a leaked transcript of a confidential report was never to way to get at any truth, shit like this needs to be discussed face to face and I've done too much dancing around the subject when face to face with people, and also with hindsight the one loyalist who told me I probably had more faith in the process, the accused and the verdict than he did was probably trying to hint at what I've been told tonight) but as I say it's impossible for me to have a proper view on any of it any more. I'm stumped and if I'm being told the truth I'm appalled at others and myself and right now seriously don't know which way is up.

edited: to say a) I was sober last night throughout but am getting properly trollied tonight and b)something about the politics. In a week from now the politics of the split on other issues will still be what they are. But right now, this morning they don't seem very important and I don't know how to think about it all politically, don't actually feel confident to say anything about anything.
 
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bolshiebhoy said:
No that's as bad as it gets I'd say but then I'm not really in the inner sanctum. All I know is I say on here what I say to anybody.
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bolshiebhoy said:
I have god forbid me, like everyone else I have an opinion about something I have no right to.
Problem is mine doesn't tally with the majority on here.
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I get where you are coming from on this- of course people have opinions that differ on this, and yes, shouldn't.

And polls consistently show that vast numbers of people hold dear to rape myths (including many women who have been raped, which is one reason for late disclosures) don't get the concept of emotional abuse or coercion and aren't very sympathetic to DV victims. Plus, relationships are complicated at the best of times.

But surely socialists should challenge those preconceptions, not succumb to them. Not challenging them, even reinforcing them, as the swp has done, that's a massive political error.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The problem is exactly that , we can all usually only go on what is publicly out there. stack says he had to resign over the way the women were treated by the process, by the claims about their integrity etc. As far as I can see he hasn't explicitly said he and others knew they were raped and covered it up. Now someone who shall remain nameless and isn't anyone obvious shared some detail with me tonight that If true would very strongly suggest everything I've assumed about the first case at least is bollox and that what I'm assuming here is stack's position may not be at all. I have almost zero emotional attachment to the position I'm arguing, I am completely reliant on the public info on this case, crucially what stack and unwin and others said and we've had that in front of us since roughly page 10 of this thread. As I trust the person who shared this new detail with me tonight and also trust the people who've essentially sworn blind to me that the truth is closer to what stack originally said (or bearing in mind what slk said, fair enough, what i took him to imply really bloody strongly in the hope that if it had been otherwise he wouldn't have said what he said) I have no option but to shut up and not say another word on this matter. As long as it was all about matters of public knowledge I could and did argue for what I thought those publicly known facts suggested. I know my interpretation of those facts puts me in a tiny minority but it was the only one I could come to without believing the worst of some very decent people. But this latest revelation, which clearly I can't and never would reveal leaves me floored and unsure of pretty much anything. so I'm just gonna shut the fuck up which I'm sure will be a relief to most. I know getting me to do that is why the person has told me what they've told me but that doesn't mean I don't believe them in fact Ive been sat here getting more and more depressed since they contacted me four hours ago, so to him/her I say I hear you and I'm out of here.No doubt someone will ask why it took a personal intervention to change my mind but all I can say is if I'm not being lied to tonight then we have all been lied to by a lot of people and the public 'facts' I thought I was operating off of are a joke. There may be an equally devastating fact for the defence which I haven't heard but to be honest after the damning thing I heard last night god only knows what the fuck that could be and the point is we'll probably never know now. All I know is this one piece of information has floored me, sickened me and as of the end of this post totally silenced me on this subject.

Maybe as you say karmickameleon some day this can all be properly cleared up but that's probably less and less likely without causing even more damage to the women in the case. So we're left with this huge grey zone of doubt but as I say it's impossible for me to have a proper view on any of it any more. I'm stumped and if I'm being told the truth I'm appalled at others and myself and right now seriously don't know which way is up.
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Damascus Road! Will you now consider leaving the SWP as well as this thread?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
Jeezus everything is a conspiracy. All I know is I love my personal history of fighting for a womans right to choose in Ireland, I love the part the swp has played in most of the major struggles in these islands in my lifetime. And I hate the last year. And the stuff I've had to say in defence of it all. Who wants to talk about other peoples sex lives? Don't know how to square that circle.

edited to say ban away, I can have a quiet Xmas then with the family without banging my head against the wall.
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Don't worry I will take pleasure in banging your head against a wall for you.
 
So am I right in reconstructing what happened last night as follows:

bolshie comes in around midnight, drunk and pugnacious. He posts aggressively and offensively. Someone starts to circulate those posts on Facebook or somewhere else online.
This leads to bolshie getting a phone call from someone he trusts who provides him with a 'fact' from case one that utterly shocks him. This call lasts maybe three hours because...
After 3a.m. he comes back to give us his distressed confession.

?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The problem is exactly that , we can all usually only go on what is publicly out there.
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1. Yes. So why did you assume you were in possession of all the relevant facts? Considering the direness of the 'investigations' conducted, the politicisation of the debates within the SWP, and the lack of a public trial, it seems to me you had no right to assume this. None of us here know all the facts.

2. Why, when you were not in possession of all the facts, did you not have enough (a) sympathy for the alleged abuse victims and (b) awareness of the history of discrediting rape victims, to err on the side of believing them, rather than believing the side of a bunch of people who had a clear interest in denying the allegations?

If you've changed your position I'm glad, but you should have a long hard think about the mental processes you went through in order to hold your previous position.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
Maybe as you say karmickameleon some day this can all be properly cleared up but that's probably less and less likely without causing even more damage to the women in the case. So we're left with this huge grey zone of doubt (and with hindsight drawing any conclusions from a leaked transcript of a confidential report was never to way to get at any truth, shit like this needs to be discussed face to face and I've done too much dancing around the subject when face to face with people, and also with hindsight the one loyalist who told me I probably had more faith in the process, the accused and the verdict than he did was probably trying to hint at what I've been told tonight) but as I say it's impossible for me to have a proper view on any of it any more. I'm stumped and if I'm being told the truth I'm appalled at others and myself and right now seriously don't know which way is up.
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Bolshie, I really hope that your act of contrition is sincere as you sound (at times!) like a decent bloke.
There are of course some decent people who are staying in the party although they know that the leadership has lied and covered up over the Delta scandal. They think that a) the party can be changed and b) it is more important to defend the party under attack than offer a genuine apology to W and X. I - and most of the others on this thread - believe they are profoundly wrong as this crisis has revealed a massive deficit of democracy at the heart of the SWP (and that this is going to get worse with the Idoomers cracking the whip) and that the only way that the party could salvage its reputation is by a sincere act of contrition and transparency. Of course, there is no way this going to happen...
I really don't believe that publishing the documentation relating to the cases would harm the women concerned. You will remember that W wanted to speak before the conference a year ago (something which would have blown her anonymity) and was refused permission to do so and X actually spoke. I am not of course suggesting that their names should be revealed, but I do think that publishing the documents would be better than things leaking out in dribs and drabs (eg the revelation given to you last night) and allowing the other side to insinuate that they are M15 agents or were politically motivated in their accusations. Someone has to publish and be damned .. and sooner rather than later.
Anyway, Christmas is nearly here so I hope that you and your family have a very good one. Ditto the rest of you on this thread. I'm sure we'll have a lot more to talk about in 2014.
 
I too have a lot of confidence in Pat. But the bottom line is that he was involved in a fundamentally flawed process (flawed for reasons we all know, so I'm not going to repeat them for nth time) and even his judgement can't be trusted in this business.
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Imo, none of them can, they were members of a Party which for many years has lied, smeared, bullied, manipulated,gerrymandered/packed votes, in more personal ways, used the SWP as their own 'harem' etc, one could go on, for whatever reason, SWP'ers inc many on here, acquiesced or perhaps even endorsed the sort of behaviour exhibited at say, The ESF, by the Party Tops, etc.
 
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not that i particularly want to join in the piranha swarm around bb's comments but the 'possible harassment' by Delta of that girl was pretty much proven at the time - he admitted as much in his 'I ain't no angel' speech. that and, even on the basis of harassment he should have been expelled (he's had others expelled for far far less).

i don't know further details but even on the basis of the least of his potential crimes, Delta should have been gone long ago.
 
treelover said:
Imo, none of them can, they were members of a Party which for many years has lied, smeared, bullied, manipulated,gerrymandered/packed votes, in more personal ways, used the SWP as their own 'harem' etc, one could go on, for whatever reason, SWP'ers inc many on here, acquiesced or perhaps even endorsed the sort of behaviour exhibited at say, The ESF, by the Party Tops, etc.
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have to say that of all the shitty things i saw in the SWP, using the party as a 'personal harem' was not one of them
 
Others are piranhas - doesn't matter if you agree with them or not - they're piranhas. And if they are they are simply reacting to the smell of blood rather than people responding in a principled manner to comments made by a poster.

It's a way of operating that has the swp written all over it. These are habits that those who have left are going to have to leave behind as well if they are to get anywhere - not just leaving the formal party.
 
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the internal atmosphere of the SWP was very much like a piranha swarm, which is why i recognise it outside the party too. but, ftr, the 'method' you ascribe to the party is totally bogus. the SWPs culture of dealing with discussion was nowhere near as sophisticated
 
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