leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
How so? He's awful. He didn't make one political point in his entire contribution.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
How so? He's awful. He didn't make one political point in his entire contribution.
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
"It's a point to ... think about in this situation."
His basic thesis is that it is the 'movementists' in the tendency that are against the way the rape accusation was handled. But in Ireland its the most pro-building the SWP as opposed to campaigns and 'united fronts' that are against him.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
so? he was obviously new to speaking like that, he looked like he was cacking himself. marxism meetings always have people inexperienced at public speaking making contributions. i don't think it's fair to judge these people the same as you would a more experienced comrade.
to be a good speaker takes practise.
and like bolshie says, he was in the middle of a minefield there that i don't think he was expecting when he put a speakers slip in.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
I'm sure he'd say he was dialectically avoiding the twin evils of being a sect/adapting in two very different national situations. Mind you I haven't the slightest idea whether he's right about the Irish situation.
benedict
Well-Known Member
Never have claimed the party is a cult, Bolshie. Clearly it's not. I was drawing on your portrayal of those who "added colour" over the years. And drawing on my own experiences. Take a look again at the video posted above and tell us there's not a strain of aggressive conformism among the loyalists that usually masquerades as hard-nosed political gristle.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
Hey, my first contribution was rubbish as well, it was well worse than that fella. I don't mind people having a crap delivery so long as they've got something to say. He had nothing to say.
I accept I was out of order to take the piss of the umming and ahming mind, although I think if you've essentially got nothing to say that habit will be aggravated.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i bet he'd composed an amazing and heartfelt speech in his head, one that would unite the party, rouse the whole organisation and lead the class to victory, carrying him aloft and cheering.
then it all flew out of his head the moment he got up.
i also bet that afterwards all he could think was "shit".
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
Listened to most of the youtube thing - including all of the Profs, a person i find to be thoroughly decent in many respects.
But.
The Party lose the bulk of the student contingent because they couldn't stomach the CC's manipulative lying to the membership in order to avoid properly dealing with a rape allegation against one of their number - and Callinicos claims that the real failure, and the reason so many have voted with their feet, was that students and younger people had not been sufficiently well integrated and educated in the swp tradition and structures..?
Sorry Alex, but generalised and vague 'i accept my share of responsibility' apologies of the type you made here don't seem to match the damage done by the many years of bullying and stalinised centralism that has allowed/created the current situation.
i reckon you need to come up with a better formula than blaming others.
But.
The Party lose the bulk of the student contingent because they couldn't stomach the CC's manipulative lying to the membership in order to avoid properly dealing with a rape allegation against one of their number - and Callinicos claims that the real failure, and the reason so many have voted with their feet, was that students and younger people had not been sufficiently well integrated and educated in the swp tradition and structures..?
Sorry Alex, but generalised and vague 'i accept my share of responsibility' apologies of the type you made here don't seem to match the damage done by the many years of bullying and stalinised centralism that has allowed/created the current situation.
i reckon you need to come up with a better formula than blaming others.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
God, what if the students had been sufficiently well integrated and educated in the swp tradition and structures?
andysays
Love and solidarity
Then they'd have realised that the right way to react to accusations of sexual assault by a leading member is to close ranks and sell more fucking papers. Problem solved, obviously...
There is rarely an attempt to integrate and educate the students and younger people though. I heard one delegate at the annual conference praise the parliamentary road to socialism, without a murmur of dissent. Read the main works by Lenin, Trotsky and Marx, or at least SWP interpretations of those works; that's the limit. As long as young members sell papers, shout on megaphones and help organise A-B marches, why do they need to be educated?
benedict
Well-Known Member
Don't think actually reading the main works of those thinkers is even a necessity, at least it hasn't been for a long time.
On the students, here's a revealing intervention from the prof on the "cult of youth", the necessity of "absolute brutality" in cutting young people down to size, and "eclecticism". Similar themes elaborated by Talat A, speaking just before him (including a great line about "the blogs").
benedict
Well-Known Member
Some interesting documents from the 1970s IS opposition published by the ISN here. The writer draws the obvious parallels with the contemporary situation but there's two ways of reading this:
(1) despite the tradition being fundamentally correct, there was a departure from the "real tradition" with "the turn to Lenin" and since then there have been 40 years with essentially the same structural and political problems, though these are not easy to spot since ISN members failed to notice these for, in many cases, years of membership, and would most often be contemptuously dismissive of outsiders who did point them out (Seymour being the clearest and most sneering example of this);
(2) essentially the same problems have been a part of "the tradition" for its lifetime and, given the noticeable parallels with other leftist sects, this might be indicative of more fundamental flaws.
If the ISN stick at (1) they're going to get nowhere; if they move to (2) they'll disintegrate.
(1) despite the tradition being fundamentally correct, there was a departure from the "real tradition" with "the turn to Lenin" and since then there have been 40 years with essentially the same structural and political problems, though these are not easy to spot since ISN members failed to notice these for, in many cases, years of membership, and would most often be contemptuously dismissive of outsiders who did point them out (Seymour being the clearest and most sneering example of this);
(2) essentially the same problems have been a part of "the tradition" for its lifetime and, given the noticeable parallels with other leftist sects, this might be indicative of more fundamental flaws.
If the ISN stick at (1) they're going to get nowhere; if they move to (2) they'll disintegrate.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
Ha! That's a laugh given they always use a truncated quote from Peter Taaffe's 'Enabling Bill' reply to an interview question as proof of the SP's hopeless reformism!
There is no such thing as the IS Tradition, there is only whatever happens to be expedient at the time.
Here's a prediction, if intersectionality is still in vogue in the universities in 5 years time you won't find more louder proponents of it than the SWP.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Given that is it's just the identity politics they recruited on for 20+ years whilst leaving the real politics to the real people at the top, this is what's killed them, but you'll hear soon as the longest standing proponets of IS, pushing it withining the movements and punching above our weight
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Not forgetting the prof's wonderful admonition to Birchall to go back and read his own book and stop talking nonsense about the history of the party. AC wouldn't have to denounce the cult of the youth if uncles Pat and Ian weren't busy building it up so apolitically.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And the party circle is complete once more. If you weren't challenging the party on it being correct you might be right, but you are challenging the party on it being correct, so you're wrong.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
butchers your little aphorisms are very cleverly worded but they mean you don't have to actually use any facts to back up your argument. The fact is Molyneux was quite right in his summing up to remind Colin Barker who was also lauding the IS for taking students seriously in the 60's when the Militant and Gery Healey didn't that there was another group that did recruit students. The IMG. And the difference was that the IMG wanted to build Red Bases in the unis while the IS won the best students vy arguig that students had to take their politics to the factory gate. The IMG was much less abrasive than the IS, much more 'open' to the ideas of the rest of the movement. In fact much more like the ISN and Counterfire and the rest. And people in the swp who ought to know better are ignoring those facts.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Only the party, the party and it's battles. Only your battles and no others.
benedict
Well-Known Member
Thing is, bolshie, you talk as if the party hasn't been based for at least the last couple decades on a perpetual cycle of student recruitment and disillusioned burn-out and departure. Combined with the parasitism and opportunism towards "the movement" at large, the total lack of political education (the one point they seem willing to concede) beyond the thin gruel of the SWP canon, and the opportunist embrace of identity politics, it's a toxic brew.
Yet for the loyalists, it's as if this hasn't been the modus operandi of the party for years; they've remained the staunch class fighters while all around them have been losing their heads with "new ideas". The Counterfire crew wanted to take them down that road, the ISN splitters have fallen into the same eclectic bear-trap, the internal opposition is mollycoddling the youth, the steadfast remain on the straight path. In reality, they've all been treading the same stagnant waters for years.
oskarsdrum
Active Member
The problem is all this stuff is being wheeled out not to come to or express a better way of organising for socialism but merely to defend the indefensible and to shore up an utterly bankrupt ruling clique. Makes me really sad as I always found Talat to be one of the more personable and approachable of the cadres I came across.
Giving as good as you get to Maoists in the 60s is one thing, ascribing students being unable to stomach MS's reintegration on a lack of "hard arguments" is rather different!
Giving as good as you get to Maoists in the 60s is one thing, ascribing students being unable to stomach MS's reintegration on a lack of "hard arguments" is rather different!
discokermit
Well-Known Member
and sickening.
oskarsdrum
Active Member
benedict said:
This is well observed too I think benedict. The ISN is an inevitably broad coalition with a wing looking for an SWP minus the loopy excesses, and an opposite wing who are willing to give all sorts a fair hearing within a broadly Marxist framework. Coming out of the SWP where the opportunities to meaningfully analyse theories and strategies were minimal it's bound to be a fairly unstable structure. It's not so easy to shed the defensive reflexes finely honed over the years -- nor conversely to control the giddy heights of newfound liberties...
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Have you seen Dave Renton's response to this:
David Renton shared a link.
about an hour ago
https://www.facebook.com/davidkrenton?fref=ts
For people who weren't at Marxism it's worth watching this clip at around 1 hr 17 to 1 hr 22. You'll see the ***** ******* ********* in "full on" apologist mode
Like the very worst of the public school debaters that the CC bangs on about, he lies about and smears the people he disagrees with (Robert Owen, Ian Birchall...) in order to make their arguments appear laughable
Look carefully and you will see him smiling at his own, vindictive, jokes
He talks about his friendship with Julie Waterson, when he was part of the SWP leadership which sacked her and then spread lies about her to justify her dismissal
What all of us have learned in the last year is that the socialism we would make after the revolution is the socialism we live in the here and now. We can't pre-empt the ideal society, but we sure as hell can betray it. All of us know that there are comrades who encourage and inspire, who by their presence make other people feel strong. Julie was one, Paul Foot was another. And then there are people, yes, even in socialist parties, as so often everywhere else in life, whose only function in life is to make others feel weak.
I would defy any living, breathing revolutionary to listen to this honestly and say - yes, I want to be in a party with him!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Fair play to Renton if it's kosher. Can anyone else say that it is?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
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