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SWP expulsions and squabbles

which actresses did Cliff fancy? I always had the hots for Lauren Bacall and mid period Charlotte Rampling
The offending quote which is to be found in Birchall's biography and which Cliff apparently employed to explain the need for realistic expectations was "I'd like to sleep with Gina Lollobrigida, but I have to put up with what I've got." That's pretty much it, that's the proof advanced by Bakan that IS/SWP anti-feminism produces a sexist IS/SWP practice. QE fucking D obviously :-(

By that reckoning me and mrs bb must have an abusive relationship cause when our son was younger we each trained him to say "look mum [or dad] there's my new dad [or mum] on tv!" whenever Will Carling or Jen Lopez appeared on telly. Not saying which of us fancied which obviously.
 
You have a lovely turn of phrase benedict even if I don't agree with you, Yeovil Rotary Club indeed :)

The science hasn't exactly been spilling out in the book load over recent years no but I can't see the attraction of the eclectic alternatives either. There's clearly a dearth of original Marxist thinkers in the tradition at the moment but I remain convinced the answer isn't to be found in the Seymour approach. And this will sound quite harsh as I'm friendly with some of the internal oppo but I honestly can't see them providing the alternative intelectual leadership they so want to. Stack and Birchall are hugely imprtant moral figures to have on your side (who would dare be nasty to uncle Pat or Ian?!) but they're neither of them a Harman or Callinicos imho. There's no doubting the raw inteligence of a Bergfeld but I can't help feeling that whereas the folk like Cliff who developed the ideas did so after having totally embraced them the tendency in this opposition is to try and stick bits on to the existing body of ideas without properly making them your own. Cliff developed the theory of state cap after a long hard attempt at opposing it!

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, BB. I agree with most of your impressions here, yet the point I was trying to make -- or at least allude to -- is that the somewhat intangible moment hinted at by Luxemburg's phrase, a kind of synergistic moment between historical materialist theory and working class political practice, is actually a deeply contingent one. And what I was trying to point to are the wider preconditions that could permit such a contingent moment to arise.

Now, I think it's interesting that you focus on the big hitters of the party past and present. While some of these individuals have made valuable contributions to the Left in various ways, I think their merits are rather beside the point. It's beside the point too, wherever the ISN's theoretical cards may fall.

At the heart of Rosa's point is surely the idea that a "science" of history or politics can't proceed without a dialectical relationship with the praxis of revolutionaries. This would imply, it seems to me, a collectivity that (a) is deeply rooted in the working class; (b) relates to that class in a direct and active way; (c) advances its practice and theory on the basis of the dialectical movement between the two at the moment of its praxis; (d) has an internal "culture" such based around constant debate and questioning alongside activity.

A very gilded version of the IS's factory-gate past may be forced to approximate such a view. But it's patent that the SWP is no where near fulfilling any of these reconditions: it does not have significant roots in the working class; it rarely relates directly and actively to class concerns; theory is generated by the intellectual aristocrats and academics in thrall to the IS tradition, or by middle-level apparachiks recapitulating their betters' writings at a more simplistic level; within the "tradition" as such there are enough sacred cows to form a small dairy farm; and we know all about how the internal culture operates.
 
Apparently the anti-leninist wave isn't just hurting the swp. Our old mates in the Irish SP are suffering too: http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/972/socialist-party-ireland-not-for-the-public-domain

I know people deride the intelectual athmosphere in the swp but accusing your ex members of pandering to an "anarcho mood that’s out there" doesn't particularily mark comrade McLoughlin out as the future Irish Lenin.

Apology Boy as always makes a very timely comparison with another left organisation in order to highlight the damage done by the anti Leninist opposition to the SWP.

Under the cover of so called concern for a botched rape investigation these oppositionist intersectionalistas have reduced the SWP to adopting the same methods as the incorrigibly reformist Socialist Party!

For example comrades who raise differences on social media or blogs are NOT instantly expelled, as was the correct bolshevik practice up to recently!
Even worse, oppositionists have been allowed to air differences at public events like Marxism and are not violently harried out of the venue post haste.
Hopefully sanity will soon prevail in the SWP and good order can be restored.

However all true believers in the IS "Tradition" can take heart! Despite everything the party has been through at least it has not degenerated to the level of the Socialist Party and started having meetings to discuss why people are leaving the party...
 
Don't forget: also use big words like "autonomism" incorrectly to sound smart. Don't say more down-to-Earth (and closer to the truth!) phrases like "anarcho mood". That's how to mystify any intellectual contributions SWP-style and make debate seem out of reach to the ordinary paper-seller.
 
Did you read the article? The official responses (nothing to see here, the splitters weren't active members anyway and such like) make NG's crude reply to Rosen sound like poetry. Quite funny how people differentiate between sp and swp woes. What is called crude hackery in the swp is called down to earth in the sp. I'm not that fascinated in the sp to get into a long debate on this and as it goes I'm not glad to see them in decline either but the one eyed attitudes of many on here are funny is all :)
 
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, BB. I agree with most of your impressions here, yet the point I was trying to make -- or at least allude to -- is that the somewhat intangible moment hinted at by Luxemburg's phrase, a kind of synergistic moment between historical materialist theory and working class political practice, is actually a deeply contingent one. And what I was trying to point to are the wider preconditions that could permit such a contingent moment to arise.

Now, I think it's interesting that you focus on the big hitters of the party past and present. While some of these individuals have made valuable contributions to the Left in various ways, I think their merits are rather beside the point. It's beside the point too, wherever the ISN's theoretical cards may fall.

At the heart of Rosa's point is surely the idea that a "science" of history or politics can't proceed without a dialectical relationship with the praxis of revolutionaries. This would imply, it seems to me, a collectivity that (a) is deeply rooted in the working class; (b) relates to that class in a direct and active way; (c) advances its practice and theory on the basis of the dialectical movement between the two at the moment of its praxis; (d) has an internal "culture" such based around constant debate and questioning alongside activity.

A very gilded version of the IS's factory-gate past may be forced to approximate such a view. But it's patent that the SWP is no where near fulfilling any of these reconditions: it does not have significant roots in the working class; it rarely relates directly and actively to class concerns; theory is generated by the intellectual aristocrats and academics in thrall to the IS tradition, or by middle-level apparachiks recapitulating their betters' writings at a more simplistic level; within the "tradition" as such there are enough sacred cows to form a small dairy farm; and we know all about how the internal culture operates.
Interesting points benedict. But the thing is Rosa was talking about mass parties or at least parties on the verge of being such no? We're still (depressingly at this stage of the game!) talking about the primitive accumalation of cadres and in that context the heavy hitters, the lack of them that is, surely plays a bigger role.

Constant internal debate is great if it allows a group to reflect real innovative ideas thrown up by the struggle, to teach the teachers as it were. But sometimes the internal debate is more about reflecting rightward moving ideas that have gripped the rest of the movement. From the debates on class to gender to organisation I think the latter is more the case. I know I would say that but how a person sees 'debate' is always determined by which side of the debate they're on :)
 
... talking about the primitive accumalation of cadres and in that context the heavy hitters, the lack of them that is, surely plays a bigger role...

You are the last person on this thread I would have expected to describe the SWP's approach to recruitment using a term that compares it to slavery, plunder and enclosure.
 
The second part of that fomulation is equally problematic. Big theoretical hitters are the key to establishing the organisational basis of the group that then goes forth and relates to the leading part of the class on the basis of their theoretical grounding received from these big hitters, and they move up the internal chain and become big hitters themselves. This encapsulates one set of reasons why and where the swp have got into such difficulties (on so many levels) rather handily. Key is big hitters (not the involvement with the class directly) and the transmission of the correct positions by those big hitters to new recruits, who are then rewarded internally by their fidelity to and the depth of aggressive defence of the positions those big hitters provided them with (internal focus and stifling internal culture, closed off from any other developments unless they have been assessed for the cadres by the correct authorities). The appalling circularity of leninism laid pretty bare.
 
Interesting points benedict. But the thing is Rosa was talking about mass parties or at least parties on the verge of being such no? We're still (depressingly at this stage of the game!) talking about the primitive accumalation of cadres and in that context the heavy hitters, the lack of them that is, surely plays a bigger role.

Constant internal debate is great if it allows a group to reflect real innovative ideas thrown up by the struggle, to teach the teachers as it were. But sometimes the internal debate is more about reflecting rightward moving ideas that have gripped the rest of the movement. From the debates on class to gender to organisation I think the latter is more the case. I know I would say that but how a person sees 'debate' is always determined by which side of the debate they're on :)

Butchers really hits the nail on the head above.

But to add, you invoked Luxemburg in order to contrast the collective- disciplinary role of the party vis-a-vis the mystified reformist drift of the swamp-dwellers. Now you're rolling back to say the content of her analysis doesn't apply in the present situation. Fair enough. So what are we left with? It all comes down to discipline doesn't it? Discipline denuded of the direct connection to class struggle and of workers' experience challenging the existing line. Just swallow the latest perspectives dispensed by the "teachers" in party notes.

But this brings us right back to the problem you brought in Rosa to try to address: how can you believe that those perspectives are correct? I mean, seriously, the prof is a smart chap but he can't even bring himself to sell the paper. More seriously, there is rather lot of empirical data to suggest the party hasn't quite hit on the right revolutionary formula. Yet there's still no room for challenging existing orthodoxies?! Does it just come down to holding the faith? Isn't this just so much nostalgia?
 
Butchers really hits the nail on the head above.

But to add, you invoked Luxemburg in order to contrast the collective- disciplinary role of the party vis-a-vis the mystified reformist drift of the swamp-dwellers. Now you're rolling back to say the content of her analysis doesn't apply in the present situation. Fair enough. So what are we left with? It all comes down to discipline doesn't it? Discipline denuded of the direct connection to class struggle and of workers' experience challenging the existing line. Just swallow the latest perspectives dispensed by the "teachers" in party notes.

But this brings us right back to the problem you brought in Rosa to try to address: how can you believe that those perspectives are correct? I mean, seriously, the prof is a smart chap but he can't even bring himself to sell the paper. More seriously, there is rather lot of empirical data to suggest the party hasn't quite hit on the right revolutionary formula. Yet there's still no room for challenging existing orthodoxies?! Does it just come down to holding the faith? Isn't this just so much nostalgia?
Almost completely irrelevant point, I have seen 'the prof' selling Socialist Worker.

Other than that I agree :D
 
Me too actually, but I thought I'd read him quoted somewhere saying he left it to others in general. Sticking to the theory.
 
True enough:

Cliff said:
Comrades reading the story about our serious attitude to contacts, the readiness to patiently spend a lot of time and effort with them, could learn something from this. When Lenin wrote, ‘There cannot be a revolutionary movement without revolutionary theory,’ he meant that one had to take Marxism seriously – education classes are very important indeed. When Trotsky adapted Marx’s term ‘primitive accumulation of capital’ and from it coined the term ‘primitive accumulation of cadres’, he meant that you have to look after every individual contact seriously.

What an ugly turn of phrase. You have to admire the honesty of it though. The party's relationship to the class is like that of a proto-capitalist to the mineral wealth of Potosi, the population of sub-saharan Africa or the peasantry of pre-industrial Europe. At least they lack the means to write history in letters of blood and fire.
 
The second part of that fomulation is equally problematic. Big theoretical hitters are the key to establishing the organisational basis of the group that then goes forth and relates to the leading part of the class on the basis of their theoretical grounding received from these big hitters, and they move up the internal chain and become big hitters themselves. This encapsulates one set of reasons why and where the swp have got into such difficulties (on so many levels) rather handily. Key is big hitters (not the involvement with the class directly) and the transmission of the correct positions by those big hitters to new recruits, who are then rewarded internally by their fidelity to and the depth of aggressive defence of the positions those big hitters provided them with (internal focus and stifling internal culture, closed off from any other developments unless they have been assessed for the cadres by the correct authorities). The appalling circularity of leninism laid pretty bare.
Total caricature. One of the best things about Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution for example, that paragon of Leninist history is the number of times the class teaches the party rather than the other way round as happens in stalinist history. Cliff of all modern leninists of note was at pains to emphasise that the relationship is one of dialogue not a one way transmission belt of 'truth' to the class from the leninists. He based his practice in this country on a rejection of that Gerry Healy crap and repeatedly (some would say too often) emphasised the new ideas and experience of young militant workers over tired old party men and women. The working class invented soviets and then Lenin wrote state and revolution , not the other way around. But without state and revolution the second october revolution may never have happened. Similarily it wasn't until Hungarian workers actually started toppling the statues of stalin that people in such huge numbers could break from stalinism in the west. But the fact that a heavyhitter like cliff had written his book on state cap earlier and bothered to gather a group of people who bought the argument made that break stronger and more fruitful.
 
People getting very excited about the latest party notes. Odd how ISN folk were pasting chunks of it on FB hours before actual swp members but I guess that says more about Charlie's To list. Things are approaching some sort of denouement.
 
Total caricature. One of the best things about Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution for example, that paragon of Leninist history is the number of times the class teaches the party rather than the other way round as happens in stalinist history. Cliff of all modern leninists of note was at pains to emphasise that the relationship is one of dialogue not a one way transmission belt of 'truth' to the class from the leninists. He based his practice in this country on a rejection of that Gerry Healy crap and repeatedly (some would say too often) emphasised the new ideas and experience of young militant workers over tired old party men and women. The working class invented soviets and then Lenin wrote state and revolution , not the other way around. But without state and revolution the second october revolution may never have happened. Similarily it wasn't until Hungarian workers actually started toppling the statues of stalin that people in such huge numbers could break from stalinism in the west. But the fact that a heavyhitter like cliff had written his book on state cap earlier and bothered to gather a group of people who bought the argument made that break stronger and more fruitful.


This is a satisfying narrative, Bolshie. But there are a couple of problems. The first is the conflation of events over a century of history as if they were part of some unbroken thread of Leninist praxis. The second is the massive disjuncture between the theory that has been espoused by Cliff and other the big-hitters and the reality of their approach to the working class. You just seem to take Cliff on his word, without pausing to consider what the SWP actually does and has done historically.
 
People getting very excited about the latest party notes. Odd how ISN folk were pasting chunks of it on FB hours before actual swp members but I guess that says more about Charlie's To list. Things are approaching some sort of denouement.


What about? That the resignation is for "confidential" reasons?
 
Total caricature. One of the best things about Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution for example, that paragon of Leninist history is the number of times the class teaches the party rather than the other way round as happens in stalinist history. Cliff of all modern leninists of note was at pains to emphasise that the relationship is one of dialogue not a one way transmission belt of 'truth' to the class from the leninists. He based his practice in this country on a rejection of that Gerry Healy crap and repeatedly (some would say too often) emphasised the new ideas and experience of young militant workers over tired old party men and women. The working class invented soviets and then Lenin wrote state and revolution , not the other way around. But without state and revolution the second october revolution may never have happened. Similarily it wasn't until Hungarian workers actually started toppling the statues of stalin that people in such huge numbers could break from stalinism in the west. But the fact that a heavyhitter like cliff had written his book on state cap earlier and bothered to gather a group of people who bought the argument made that break stronger and more fruitful.

As caricatured as the crude question begging deus ex machina of the dialectical relationship between 'party and class'? Seriously, Cameron and Blair and every person who is not an open authoritarian has the sense to present their party/group/racket as being open to and based on what the mass of people want. It doesn't make it true either in intention or in empirical fact or functioning. And when you place this next to the comments i was responding to we find that this relationship with the party has with the class is one that takes place through the cadres the theoretical big hitters have attracted to the party and who represent the leading layer of the class - so already we have the assumption here that the leading layers of the class, and the ones who are in dialogue with the party are people who are attracted on the basis of their support for the party - the class is essentially in agreement with with party (or will be made to understand that it is through the partys cadres, attracted as they already are by the partys big hitters) and will be allowed to tell the party stuff. No escape from this leninist circularity. None shall escape!







(The theory now returns with greater coherence. Let our practice now unite with that theory, and in a way that none shall escape)
 
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