SWP expulsions and squabbles

[comrade spurski]

and you think a court would take power and authority as arbitrary (and bonkers) as that seriously?

No...that's why i said it is not to do with what a court would think but what a socialist party should have done.

 

[JHE]

I'm sorry that some people think the mere fact that Smith (allegedly) had sexual relationships with girls much younger than him is proof that he is a sexual abuser.

I've known people who have been in relationships with very big age differences. It always seems odd to me, but it would be wrong to suggest that all such relationships are abusive. As long as both parties are old enough to consent, such relationships can be fully consensual.

When I was young, doing my A levels at an FE college, there were a few cases of youngsters (m & f), of about 17, getting involved with lecturers who were much older than them. This was gossip-worthy, but not scandalous. Later at university there were gossip-provoking liaisons between students and lecturers, but nobody (as far as I know) claimed that such relationships were always abusive.

How attitudes have changed! And the law has changed too. Things I remember people doing legally in the late 70s and early 80s would now result in sackings and prosecutions.

If Smith is guilty of sexual harassment he should have been thrown out of the ToyTown Bolsheviks long ago. If he is guilty of rape he should be sent to prison.

If as a 50-year-old he has the habit of picking up girls young enough to be his daughter, call him a dirty old man, by all means, suggest that he might be happier with a woman of his own age, fine, but if the relationships with the youngsters are consensual that on its own should not be grounds for disciplinary action, expulsions etc.

 

[andysays]

I'm sorry that some people think the mere fact that Smith (allegedly) had sexual relationships with girls much younger than him is proof that he is a sexual abuser.

I've known people who have been in relationships with very big age differences. It always seems odd to me, but it would be wrong to suggest that all such relationships are abusive. As long as both parties are old enough to consent, such relationships can be fully consensual.

When I was young, doing my A levels at an FE college, there were a few cases of youngsters (m & f), of about 17, getting involved with lecturers who were much older than them. This was gossip-worthy, but not scandalous. Later at university there were gossip-provoking liaisons between students and lecturers, but nobody (as far as I know) claimed that such relationships were always abusive.

How attitudes have changed! And the law has changed too. Things I remember people doing legally in the late 70s and early 80s would now result in sackings and prosecutions.

If Smith is guilty of sexual harassment he should have been thrown out of the ToyTown Bolsheviks long ago. If he is guilty of rape he should be sent to prison.

If as a 50-year-old he has the habit of picking up girls young enough to be his daughter, call him a dirty old man, by all means, suggest that he might be happier with a woman of his own age, fine, but if the relationships with the youngsters are consensual that on its own should not be grounds for disciplinary action, expulsions etc.

There seem to be a few here who are spectacularly ignoring the known facts and missing the point:

1. It's not an alleged sexual relationship, it's one he (eventually) admitted to
2. It's not really just about what he would be happier with, is it? It's that sort of thinking that got him where he is now...

 

[barney_pig]

I'm sorry that some people think the mere fact that Smith (allegedly) had sexual relationships with girls much younger than him is proof that he is a sexual abuser.

I've known people who have been in relationships with very big age differences. It always seems odd to me, but it would be wrong to suggest that all such relationships are abusive. As long as both parties are old enough to consent, such relationships can be fully consensual.

When I was young, doing my A levels at an FE college, there were a few cases of youngsters (m & f), of about 17, getting involved with lecturers who were much older than them. This was gossip-worthy, but not scandalous. Later at university there were gossip-provoking liaisons between students and lecturers, but nobody (as far as I know) claimed that such relationships were always abusive.

How attitudes have changed! And the law has changed too. Things I remember people doing legally in the late 70s and early 80s would now result in sackings and prosecutions.

If Smith is guilty of sexual harassment he should have been thrown out of the ToyTown Bolsheviks long ago. If he is guilty of rape he should be sent to prison.

If as a 50-year-old he has the habit of picking up girls young enough to be his daughter, call him a dirty old man, by all means, suggest that he might be happier with a woman of his own age, fine, but if the relationships with the youngsters are consensual that on its own should not be grounds for disciplinary action, expulsions etc.

Yes times have changed.
The days when jimmy Saville was able to prey on teenagers with impunity are over, neither is it acceptable for those in positions of power and responsibility to use that power to inveigled young and vulnerable people into sexual relationships. Smiths relationship with this young woman was inappropriate even before the allegation of rape was made.
What hasn't changed is that you are a cunt.

 

[JHE]

There seem to be a few here who are spectacularly ignoring the known facts and missing the point:

1. It's not an alleged sexual relationship, it's one he (eventually) admitted to
2. It's not really just about what he would be happier with, is it? It's that sort of thinking that got him where he is now...

It is also said that he made a habit of picking up young 'comrades'. I don't know if that's true or not.

In any case, the point, as I'm sure you understand, is that the age discrepancy should not in itself be seem as abusive.

 

[comrade spurski]

oh so do I. joining the SWP has always struck me as bizarre, staying in it is just quite extraordinary.

that's only only partially a joke, but I'm not trying to make light of an obviously serious matter

me too, mate, me too. I've met teenagers.

Not the point though. Whether middle aged blokes approve of the relationships of others is neither here nor there. Until you can campaign to raise the age of consent, she is fully entitled to make her own decisions.

I'll listen to laptop & cesare, if they come back and say that in this specific circumstance, the law says she is a year too young to consent. However the principle, that you have to accept young peoples right to their own decisions in their own lives is not to be glossed over simply because some of us think we know better.

The woman's choice is not the issue...she made a complaint after they had a relationship....he admitted the relationship and in my opinion should have been expelled...what the fuck is there for you to argue with?
I don't pretend to know better ... I just know he was wrong and should have been dealt with accordingly...it is you that pretend to know better with your digs at those who have been in the swp...of teenagers in general and has been treating this like a philosophical matter.

 

[JHE]

Yes times have changed.
The days when jimmy Saville was able to prey on teenagers with impunity are over, neither is it acceptable for those in positions of power and responsibility to use that power to inveigled young and vulnerable people into sexual relationships. Smiths relationship with this young woman was inappropriate even before the allegation of rape was made.
What hasn't changed is that you are a cunt.

Jimmy Saville preyed on kids below the age of consent. Very different.

 

[andysays]

It is also said that he made a habit of picking up young 'comrades'. I don't know if that's true or not.

In any case, the point, as I'm sure you understand, is that the age discrepancy should not in itself be seem as abusive.

Perhaps you'd like to quote the post or posts where I made any reference to these alledged habits, or argued either that the age discrepancy was the only issue or that the relationship should necessarily be seen as abusive...

 

[emanymton]

Jimmy Saville preyed on kids below the age of consent. Very different.

Not really the age of consent is just an arbitrary number. Do you really thing that just because a girl is 15 one day and 16 the next what Saville did goes from vile to perfectly ok?

 

[JHE]

Perhaps you'd like to quote the post or posts where I made any reference to these alledged habits, or argued either that the age discrepancy was the only issue or that the relationship should necessarily be seen as abusive...

I don't know or care whether you have or not

 

[andysays]

I don't know or care whether you have or not

Perhaps, in that case, the next time you address a response to me, you might attempt to address the specific points I'm making, rather than come out with disengenuous bollocks which has fuck all to do with my argument

 

[JHE]

Not really the age of consent is just an arbitrary number. Do you really thing that just because a girl is 15 one day and 16 the next what Saville did goes from vile to perfectly ok?

I think that the age of consent has to be an 'arbitrary' number, though it is possible to have more than one 'arbitrary' number depending on the other person's 'arbitrary' number of years.

I would say, though, that the relationships I was aware of between, say, 17-year-old students and lecturers seemed fully consensual and did not, as far as I was aware, lead to any bad results.

 

[TremulousTetra]

In any case, the point, as I'm sure you understand, is that the age discrepancy should not in itself be seem as abusive.

I agree with this point in general.

 

[JHE]

Perhaps, in that case, the next time you address a response to me, you might attempt to address the specific points I'm making, rather than come out with disengenuous bollocks which has fuck all to do with my argument

Stop being silly. My only response to you was to explain why I had referred to Smith's alleged habit of picking up much younger 'comrades'.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Not really the age of consent is just an arbitrary number. Do you really thing that just because a girl is 15 one day and 16 the next what Saville did goes from vile to perfectly ok?

this is like a witchhunt.

It is a valid point to make, that not all relationships between 17 and 50 with power relationships involved are abusive.

 

[JHE]

this is like a witchhunt.

It may be worth clarifying, especially in a forum as abusive as Urban 75, that you are not claiming here that Smith is being witch-hunted. You're not, are you?

Your point, if I understand you correctly, is that in the fury against relationships with the sort of age discrepancy involved - say 17-50 - there may be some potential for witch hunts of other people. Is that right?

 

[TremulousTetra]

It may be worth clarifying, especially in a forum as abusive as Urban 75, that you are not claiming here that Smith is being witch-hunted. You're not, are you?

Your point, if I understand you correctly, is that in the fury against relationships with the sort of age discrepancy involved - say 17-50 - there may be some potential for witch hunts of other people. Is that right?

I was referring to your treatment on here. You seem to be getting witch hunted, for making a reasonable point.

My point is, " not all relationships between 17 and 50 with power relationships involved are abusive."

Not defending or attacking Smith

 

[JHE]

I was referring to your treatment on here. You seem to be getting witch hunted, for making a reasonable point.

My point is, " not all relationships between 17 and 50 with power relationships involved are abusive."

Not defending or attacking Smith

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Fortunately for me (and others), abuse from the barking snarly U75 pack is easy to survive...

 

[comrade spurski]

It is also said that he made a habit of picking up young 'comrades'. I don't know if that's true or not.

In any case, the point, as I'm sure you understand, is that the age discrepancy should not in itself be seem as abusive.

Age discrepancy itself is not the issue...it's
The issue of him being expelled for behaving inappropriately comes from when the woman made a complaint against him.

my point re his age and me not understanding why a 48 yr old would want to be with a 17 yr old is my own moral choice...I personally know people with 20 year gaps in relationships with the youngest being in their mid 20's and have no opinion as it's none of my business but if I had a mate who began a relationship with someone who was 17 yrs old (barely out of school) I would have great difficulty maintaining a friendship with them...maybe it's cos I have a 15 year old daughter or maybe I am being reactionary.

he was in a position of power in an organistion that she had joined and as such he should have realised that his behaviour was unacceptable...however once she made a complaint and he admitted the relationship he should have been expelled...others have in the past been expelled when a woman has made an allegation without anyone else being a witness to the accusation (something I agreed with)... this is because the swp claims to take womens rights seriously...something they patently refused to do in this instance.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Fortunately for me (and others), abuse from the barking snarly U75 pack is easy to survive...

I wouldn't say they're barking, they often make a lot of sense, but certainly unnecessarily abusive (never liked the way they treated Dorritos mate, forget his name.]

 

[cesare]

"Witch hunt" is a bit of a joke. A couple of pages discussing it again but hardly abusive. If you think this is a witch hunt, you've really got no idea what level of abuse aimed at Delta and the SWP is going in in the wider world beyond urban

 

[andysays]

"Witch hunt" is a bit of a joke. A couple of pages discussing it again but hardly abusive. If you think this is a witch hunt, you've really got no idea what level of abuse aimed at Delta and the SWP is going in in the wider world beyond urban

And also you're conveniently forgeting the real abuse directed at the two women within the SWP who were brave enough to voice their allegations against Smith/Delta, by their supposed comrades

 

[TremulousTetra]

Age discrepancy itself is not the issue...

we agree then.

my point re his age and me not understanding why a 48 yr old would want to be with a 17 yr old is my own moral choice...I personally know people with 20 year gaps in relationships with the youngest being in their mid 20's and have no opinion as it's none of my business but if I had a mate who began a relationship with someone who was 17 yrs old (barely out of school) I would have great difficulty maintaining a friendship with them...maybe it's cos I have a 15 year old daughter or maybe I am being reactionary.

Yup

btw, my daughter and son are just 18. both have took heir partners to bed in my house. can't say I'm comfortable with it for either of them, but feel less comfortable with my daughter whose partner's 21. why? why am I being sexist in my feelings? because the muck of ages affects us all.

Also my mate was 17 when he fucked the boss. She didn't abuse her position of power, he chased her, got her pissed, did the deed. carried on for about 18 months. He looks back on it with nothing but fondness.

JUST because there was age difference, JUST because there were power relations, doesn't make it abusive.

 

[cesare]

And also you're conveniently forgeting the real abuse directed at the two women within the SWP who were brave enough to voice their allegations against Smith/Delta, by their supposed comrades

Me? I don't forget that. That's at the forefront of my mind when I think of Delta and the SWP.

 

[TremulousTetra]

"Witch hunt" is a bit of a joke. A couple of pages discussing it again but hardly abusive. If you think this is a witch hunt, you've really got no idea what level of abuse aimed at Delta and the SWP is going in in the wider world beyond urban

yeah, fair point. Not really a witchhunt. Just a typical over the top reaction, twisting of words, et cetera that takes place in most forums.


eta if you think most people in the wider world have a clue who Delta, SWP, or most people on the revolutionary left are, you don't have a clue.

 

[butchersapron]

we agree then.

Yup

btw, my daughter and son are just 18. both have took heir partners to bed in my house. can't say I'm comfortable with it for either of them, but feel less comfortable with my daughter whose partner's 21. why? why am I being sexist in my feelings? because the muck of ages affects us all.

Also my mate was 17 when he fucked the boss. She didn't abuse her position of power, he chased her, got her pissed, did the deed. carried on for about 18 months. He looks back on it with nothing but fondness.

JUST because there was age difference, JUST because there were power relations, doesn't make it abusive.

Still DEFINITELY NOT going on about Smith here then i see.

 

[cesare]

yeah, fair point. Not really a witchhunt. Just a typical over the top reaction, twisting of words, et cetera that takes place in most forums.


eta if you think most people in the wider world have a clue who Delta, SWP, or most people on the revolutionary left are, you don't have a clue.

It's not even over the top - it's tame. It's the sort of conversation you could have with your parents ffs

And as for the wider world, it's the national press coverage of this story that's resulted in much of the public now having a clue about who the ubiquitous paper sellers are

 

[TremulousTetra]

Me? I don't forget that.

Yes you do! You lying cretinnus running dog of capitalism.

 

[andysays]

Me? I don't forget that. That's at the forefront of my mind when I think of Delta and the SWP.

Sorry, I didn't mean you were forgetting it. I meant that people suggesting witch hunts are forgetting/ignoring it.

It was supposed to be an addition to your point, not in any way a criticism of it, but it was badly expressed

 

[cesare]

Yes you do! You lying cretinnus running dog of capitalism.

You're not in a strong position to call me cretinous if you can't even spell it, you unspeakable cunt