SWP expulsions and squabbles

[TremulousTetra]

It's not even over the top - it's tame. It's the sort of conversation you could have with your parents ffs

And as for the wider world, it's the national press coverage of this story that's resulted in much of the public now having a clue about who the ubiquitous paper sellers are

tomorrow's chippy paper

Peter Andre has a new hairstyle don't you know.

I wish you were right, but from my every day experience, you're not!

 

[comrade spurski]

we agree then.

Yup

btw, my daughter and son are just 18. both have took heir partners to bed in my house. can't say I'm comfortable with it for either of them, but feel less comfortable with my daughter whose partner's 21. why? why am I being sexist in my feelings? because the muck of ages affects us all.

Also my mate was 17 when he fucked the boss. She didn't abuse her position of power, he chased her, got her pissed, did the deed. carried on for about 18 months. He looks back on it with nothing but fondness.

JUST because there was age difference, JUST because there were power relations, doesn't make it abusive.

its an uneveness of power that i have a problem with...the power between an 18 yr old and a 21 yr old in an non abusive relationship seems even to me ... the power in a relationship between a 17yr old and a 48 year old who is considered to be a leading member in their organisation seems massively uneven to me...in my opinion once a complaint was made he should have been expelled

Your mates boss may not have have abused her power but she was in a serious position to do so but that's a different issue...no way would I get into that situation...mind you most of my bosses have fucking hated hated me

 

[TremulousTetra]

You're not in a strong position to call me cretinous if you can't even spell it, you unspeakable cunt

Cunt is sexist, you're expelled.
Touche. And a political point, rather than mirroring bourgeois values. Double Touche

 

[cesare]

tomorrow's chippy paper

Peter Andre has a new hairstyle don't you know.

I wish you were right, but from my every day experience, you're not!

They've gone from paper sellers to raper sellers

Surely you've heard that, amongst other examples?

 

[andysays]

Cunt is sexist, you're expelled.
Touche. And a political point, rather than mirroring bourgeois values. Double Touche

The prevailing consensus here seems to be that it's not, you plonker...

 

[TremulousTetra]

its an uneveness of power that i have a problem with...the power between an 18 yr old and a 21 yr old in an non abusive relationship seems even to me ... the power in a relationship between a 17yr old and a 48 year old who is considered to be a leading member in their organisation seems massively uneven to me...in my opinion once a complaint was made he should have been expelled

Your mates boss may not have have abused her power but she was in a serious position to do so but that's a different issue...no way would I get into that situation...mind you most of my bosses have fucking hated hated me

I'm not saying you're are not entitled to your opinion, but I really don't agree. My heart does, my initial feelings agree with you, but when I stand back and think about it, I think it's prejudiced. As you said "reactionary".
The issue is generally raised about gays, and lowering the age of consent. The way abusive older gays "trick young men into being gay". And my mind goes back to a gay blonde bloke who used to write I think it was in the Guardian, about how every kiss in public was political. He then went on to write about how in is experience, it was the young gays who were predatory of older men.
Well yes, she was in a position to abuse her power. And I wish she had, I was jealous as fuck. see what I mean. Things CAN BE a bit more complicated.

PS. I tried to make this point earlier. And also make the caveat that nothing that women or men say or do, undermines the argument "no means no. Even if I'm naked, I'm still not begging for it." But hey Ho, people will still insist I'm trying to titillate and be an apologist for rapists. Welcome to urban75.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The prevailing consensus here seems to be that it's not, you plonker...

the prevailing consensus seems to be the left are plonkers, so where does that leave us.

Just because there is a consensus, doesn't make it right. The consensus in here, is wrong IMHO.

 

[JHE]

It's not even over the top - it's tame. It's the sort of conversation you could have with your parents ffs

How often do you call your parents 'cunts'? How do they react?

 

[cesare]

Cunt is sexist, you're expelled.
Touche. And a political point, rather than mirroring bourgeois values. Double Touche

Cunt's not sexist. You can't expel me cos I've never and would never join. You're not the boss of me to take this expelling power on yourself anyway. And I'm petit bourgeois, get it right!

 

[TremulousTetra]

They've gone from paper sellers to raper sellers

Surely you've heard that, amongst other examples?

Not once. My experience of such glee is confined to a urban 75.

You need to get out more.

 

[JHE]

Cunt is sexist...

It's generational. I remember when using 'cunt' as an insult was a scandalous offence. Now it's not. Respek the kulcha.

 

[cesare]

How often do you call your parents 'cunts'? How do they react?

I don't mind engaging with RMP3 in a bit of "you cunt" "no, you cunt" silliness, just mucking about. But you're a bit sad to use that as "omg, you said cunt, you wouldn't say it to your parents". It doesn't wash. Stick to what you do best.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Cunt's not sexist. You can't expel me cos I've never and would never join. You're not the boss of me to take this expelling power on yourself anyway. And I'm petit bourgeois, get it right!

in your opinion it's not sexist? Or are you the boss of language?

You're not a member of urban 75?

Typically taking everything literally . it was a joke. I wasn't really expelling you.

Interesting. Y/ how do you define yourself as petit bourgeois? [ and I didn't call you bourgeois]

 

[cesare]

Not once. My experience of such glee is confined to a urban 75.

You need to get out more.

I do get out, and out is where I've heard it. Far worse than anything urban has to offer. It's not on account of urban that Delta's resigned.

 

[cesare]

in your opinion it's not sexist? Or are you the boss of language?

You're not a member of urban 75?

Typically taking everything literally . it was a joke. I wasn't really expelling you.

Interesting. Y/ how do you define yourself as petit bourgeois? [ and I didn't call you bourgeois]

Hold that thought, but don't hold your breath. I'm off to have my tea.

 

[JHE]

I don't mind engaging with RMP3 in a bit of "you cunt" "no, you cunt" silliness, just mucking about. But you're a bit sad to use that as "omg, you said cunt, you wouldn't say it to your parents". It doesn't wash. Stick to what you do best.

It's not a matter of my being horrified. The point is simply that you are wrong to say that U75 is like a conversation you'd have with your parents. U75 is habitually abusive.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I don't mind engaging with RMP3 in a bit of "you cunt" "no, you cunt" silliness, just mucking about. But you're a bit sad to use that as "omg, you said cunt, you wouldn't say it to your parents". It doesn't wash. Stick to what you do best.

But are you familiar as to why some in the women's movement argue cunt is sexist, and if so, why do you reject them? Do you still insist on using the terms chairman etc?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Hold that thought, but don't hold your breath. I'm off to have my tea.

Runawaaaaaaaay!

 

[TremulousTetra]

Sorry, I didn't mean you were forgetting it. I meant that people suggesting witch hunts are forgetting/ignoring it.

It was supposed to be an addition to your point, not in any way a criticism of it, but it was badly expressed

Who is "that people"? He who cant be named or spoken to. I feel like lord voldermort.

 

[discokermit]

fuck off.

 

[SLK]

Sorry hadn't seen that before I replied. I did rewrite my reply but slk had already quoted me by then so it would have looked odd if I'd edited it.

Anyhoows, more importantly than our minor handbags, are you really saying we shouldn't be pleased? If the argument is he should have been expelled earlier then I understand the point but don't agree. Given the only process the party had to deal with this stuff and given its outcome he couldn't be expelled. Should whoever has just had a word with him had that word earlier? Almost certainly yes but there are clearly at least three wings (if the notion of more than two wings makes any sense) to the party on this whole mess and their jockeying is taking some time to play itself out.

What will be interesting to watch is how the opposition reacts to this. Arguably the only thing giving the opposition coherence is the delta fiasco. Anyone who's spoken to them or read them knows they are massively diverse on every other conceivable issue, it's their collective determination to get these allegations properly resolved that keeps those differences at bay imho. Presumably the argument will be let's wait and see what happens to the second allegation. But assuming that is sorted in a fair way then maybe finally the real political differences can become the main topic of discussion and people can decide on the merits of those politics alone.

Yes, the isn open discussions on whether to appoint a full timer shows they're strangled by their need to try to be almost unanimous and make sure everyone has had their say.

The opposition are very angry this evening, as you are probably all talking about. I'm just about to catch up with the thread.

Edit: I actually meant to respond to your other post on the isn.

Edit2: ok, so no discussion of witchhunters here

 

[comrade spurski]

I'm not saying you're are not entitled to your opinion, but I really don't agree. My heart does, my initial feelings agree with you, but when I stand back and think about it, I think it's prejudiced. As you said "reactionary".
The issue is generally raised about gays, and lowering the age of consent. The way abusive older gays "trick young men into being gay". And my mind goes back to a gay blonde bloke who used to write I think it was in the Guardian, about how every kiss in public was political. He then went on to write about how in is experience, it was the young gays who were predatory of older men.
Well yes, she was in a position to abuse her power. And I wish she had, I was jealous as fuck. see what I mean. Things CAN BE a bit more complicated.

PS. I tried to make this point earlier. And also make the caveat that nothing that women or men say or do, undermines the argument "no means no. Even if I'm naked, I'm still not begging for it." But hey Ho, people will still insist I'm trying to titillate and be an apologist for rapists. Welcome to urban75.

fair enough re disagreeing with me...for the record I do not think it makes you an apologist for rapists etc...just makes you wrong

 

[barney_pig]

Bolshiebhoy defends the swp in spite of the allegations and their handling by the party. JHE defends the sexual predatation of vulnerable teenagers by older men.
Bolshie's position is wrong but based on a misplaced political loyalty, JHE is a despicable troll

 

[JHE]

Bolshiebhoy defends the swp in spite of the allegations and their handling by the party. JHE defends the sexual predatation of vulnerable teenagers by older men.

Bolshie's position is wrong but based on a misplaced political loyalty, JHE is a despicable troll

Oh, the joys of Urban75! I have not defended any predations, sexual or otherwise, by older men or anyone else...

 

[emanymton]

Age discrepancy itself is not the issue...it's
The issue of him being expelled for behaving inappropriately comes from when the woman made a complaint against him.

my point re his age and me not understanding why a 48 yr old would want to be with a 17 yr old is my own moral choice...I personally know people with 20 year gaps in relationships with the youngest being in their mid 20's and have no opinion as it's none of my business but if I had a mate who began a relationship with someone who was 17 yrs old (barely out of school) I would have great difficulty maintaining a friendship with them...maybe it's cos I have a 15 year old daughter or maybe I am being reactionary.

he was in a position of power in an organistion that she had joined and as such he should have realised that his behaviour was unacceptable...however once she made a complaint and he admitted the relationship he should have been expelled...others have in the past been expelled when a woman has made an allegation without anyone else being a witness to the accusation (something I agreed with)... this is because the swp claims to take womens rights seriously...something they patently refused to do in this instance.

Fully agree just to add a couple more things. While the age gap is an issue to some extent, it is the actual age of the women that is the main issue for me. There is a big difference between 17 and 20 in my opinion. I would be much less concerned about a relationship between a 51 year old and a 20 year old than one between a 48 year old and a 17 year old.

It is possible for such relationships to be healthy ones, but I think it is quite legitimate to be very sceptical about them.

This particular relationship obviously ended badly, even without the allegation of rape, and Delta has to take full responsibility for that as the more mature person and the one in the position of authority everything that happened is his responsibility.

On reflection I haven't actually added anything have I just restarted the points you already made.

 

[andysays]

Oh, the joys of Urban75! I have not defended any predations, sexual or otherwise, by older men or anyone else...

Instead, you seem to be denying that what happened in this particular case (and all of us here now know enough about it to express an opinion) was in any way predatory, abusive or something which was, at the very least, a profoundly dodgy, selfish and wrong thing for the man involved to do.

 

[emanymton]

And also you're conveniently forgeting the real abuse directed at the two women within the SWP who were brave enough to voice their allegations against Smith/Delta, by their supposed comrades

I head just before the special conference that the second women was in a really bad way and couldn't even face going to the faction meetings and was looking really ill. I hope she is doing better now.

 

[Before Theory]

this is like a witchhunt.

It is a valid point to make, that not all relationships between 17 and 50 with power relationships involved are abusive.

He has not been forced into resigning because he had a relationship with a woman many years younger than him.

He has been forced to resign because after the relationship was over he continued to harass and intimidate her, despite her telling him to leave her alone. Some Central Committee members saw those texts and agreed that his behaviour was unacceptable and pressurised him to resign as NS. He did that under protest but managed to get time at the 2011 conference to perform a "poor me" monologue which was lapped up by the party faithful culminating in the now notorious standing ovation.

I was at the conference and left the SWP after that nauseating spectacle, and watched as his supporters proceeded to vilify the young woman and her supporters over a period of a year. I have written at length about this earlier on this site, but I still can't believe it took 4 years from when the initial complaint was made to finally see Smith's resignation.

 

[emanymton]

Bolshiebhoy defends the swp in spite of the allegations and their handling by the party. JHE defends the sexual predatation of vulnerable teenagers by older men.
Bolshie's position is wrong but based on a misplaced political loyalty, JHE is a despicable troll

I've been in two minds whether to like this post or not as it is a bit hard on JHE. but fucks it, he can be a really tosser.

 

[emanymton]

Yes, the isn open discussions on whether to appoint a full timer shows they're strangled by their need to try to be almost unanimous and make sure everyone has had their say.

The opposition are very angry this evening, as you are probably all talking about. I'm just about to catch up with the thread.

Edit: I actually meant to respond to your other post on the isn.

Edit2: ok, so no discussion of witchhunters here

Come on then spill.