SWP expulsions and squabbles

[J Ed]

You'd better get a caffeine top-up as well then.

Back on topic, can anyone explain why, from a Trot point of view, supporting a popular revolution dominated by reactionary religious fundamentalists (just to broaden it out from the specific example here) is a good idea?

I'm also very curious about this, I have asked Trots about this before and I usually get the sensible answer that Islamists winning power is usually not an improvement on other kinds of dictatorships which persecute leftists, women, trade unionists, LGBT people, etc but people in the SWP seem to have a very different albeit not coherent answer. When you get a straight answer out of someone in the SWP on this and not an accusation of Islamophobia, they usually say something about people able to win over Islamist rank and file to Marxism through the experience of side by side struggle.

What I want to know is how many revolutions with Islamists as the victors and leftists as the victims of mass violence there have to be before this (in my eyes obviously wrong already) idea is discredited in their eyes?

 

[barney_pig]

I'm also very curious about this, I have asked Trots about this before and I usually get the sensible answer that Islamists winning power is usually not an improvement on other kinds of dictatorships which persecute leftists, women, trade unionists, LGBT people, etc but people in the SWP seem to have a very different albeit not coherent answer. When you get a straight answer out of someone in the SWP on this and not an accusation of Islamophobia, they usually say something about people able to win over Islamist rank and file to Marxism through the experience of side by side struggle.

What I want to know is how many revolutions with Islamists as the victors and leftists as the victims of mass violence there have to be before this (in my eyes obviously wrong already) idea is discredited in their eyes?

It is a particular interpretation of the concept of permanent revolution. Trotsky had argued that the bankruptcy of the colonial borgeouisie meant that the proletariat HAD to be the agent of completing the anti imperialist struggle and democratic revolution ( which would seamlessly morph into the proletarian revolution).
Cliff/'s essay deflected permanent revolution recognised that his was not happening, did so whilst desperately attempting to retain the kernel of Trotskyist thought. Cliff argued that in the absence of the working class ( because of the crisis of leadership of the revolutionary party) other social classes/ forces stepped forward- petty borgeouis nationalists Stalinist guerrillas etc.
Cliff did this in order to rescue the trot idea whilst protecting his supporters from the inevitable disillusion of watching successful national movements become junior partners in the world capitalist system. Modern SWP theory turns this on its head.
Since the soviet afghan war the SWP has argued that anti imperialism must inevitably hold backward ideas, as the only local forces with progressive politics are compromised by western imperialism. The role of the local working class is to act as the foot soldiers of these reactionary anti imperialists, whilst western socialists should cheerlead and defend them against criticism. Even the old SWP canard of unconditional but critical support is trimmed to remove the critical.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I see that the boring old uncles of the left, Socialist Resistance, are salivating at the thought of a merger with the young folks in the ISN and ACI. Some people to share their boiled sweets with and regale with stories from back in Nineteen Dickety Two. I can see why SR, a group that hasn't recruited anyone in a decade and which is essentially dying off, are so excited, but I can't for the life of me see what the ISN or ACI get out of it.

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article2959

 

[dominion]

The Socialist Resistance people are just carrying on the old IMG/Socialist League beleif of a revolutionary party being built by splits and fusions. Same old, same old.

They iniated Socialist Unity in the 70's, got involved in the Socialist Alliance and the dreadful Respect project with the odious Galloway and so dropping in to Left Unity to pick up a few new young people would seem logical from their point of view.

Otherwise they will simply die out, not that they'd be missed as if not for the internet thingy we'd never come across them. Or the ACI or Workers(?) Power or..... (add sect name here)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The Socialist Resistance people are just carrying on the old IMG/Socialist League beleif of a revolutionary party being built by splits and fusions. Same old, same old.

No they aren't. They are into soft and fluffy broad left gobshitery these days, and don't like to be reminded of their "build the revolutionary party" days. That's part of the reason why they have been dying off. They lost the drive to recruit and replaced it with an unending search for someone important who will let them carry his bags.

 

[dominion]

No they aren't. They are into soft and fluffy broad left gobshitery these days, and don't like to be reminded of their "build the revolutionary party" days. That's part of the reason why they have been dying off. They lost the drive to recruit and replaced it with an unending search for someone important who will let them carry his bags.

Are you not thinking of Socialist Action (John Ross & Mates) who were Livingstones staff in the GLA?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Are you not thinking of Socialist Action (John Ross & Mates) who were Livingstones staff in the GLA?

No. Socialist Action have been much more successful in finding a reliable and generous patron. Socialist Resistance moved from John Rees to George Galloway and are currently at a loose end.

 

[barney_pig]

Do they still carry the 4th international franchise?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Do they still carry the 4th international franchise?

One of the Fourth International franchises, yes. Although it is probably the biggest, and certainly the least coherent and organised, aspirant to the title.

 

[barney_pig]

The latest weekly worker is pretty blatant, " nasty feminists stopping people talking at Marxism, luckily Mark fisher and jack conrad are available."

 

[barney_pig]

The latest weekly worker is pretty blatant, " nasty feminists stopping people talking at Marxism, luckily Mark fisher and jack conrad are available."

Sorry, last weeks, not keeping up to date

 

[J Ed]

Ex-SWP Rev Soc at Leeds Uni produces a magazine ... http://www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php/downloads/109-the-spark-1

 

[laptop]

Ex-SWP Rev Soc at Uni produces a magazine ... http://www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php/downloads/109-the-spark-1

How did Communist parties handle issues of internal discipline and democracy in Lenin’s time? The recent intense discussion within the British Socialist Workers’ Party (SWP) and beyond has heard claims that the SWP rests on the traditions of democratic centralism inherited from the Bolsheviks.

Mass appeal

 

[treelover]

I want to write a few practical points about how I think revolutionary socialists should organise when dealing with oppression – however these extend to political criticisms of certain ‘common-sense’ attitudes that I have experienced whilst organising on the left. These are just a few ideas, but I hope that this might open up a discussion.
We live in a society in which oppression permeates every aspect of our existence, whether it be how we are treated in work or on the street, in our homes and in the media, in accessing public services and healthcare.
Sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia and disableism permeate the material world, and our consciousness – it doesn’t take a “bad” person to regurgitate these ideas when they are slapped across our media, education system and popular culture, and the capitalist hegemony has the power to allow these ideas to prevail, silencing opposition in the process.
So when it comes to organising a revolutionary party, one which can throw open its doors to the masses, how can we create a party that is fit for the whole of the working class, one which understands and fights against oppression in all of its forms?

Self-organisation
One fundamental thing I would like to see in a revolutionary party is the ability for oppressed groups to hold caucuses that can guide the party’s theory and practice around that particular strand of oppression (sexism, racism, transphobia, etc). In practice, it is clear that when women, people of colour, LGBTQ people, and disabled people are allowed the room within the party’s mechanisms to self-organise, we are able to speak more openly. We can speak without fear of having our experiences undermined, without fear of not being understood or having our ideas side-lined. Self-organisation should not have to be something we need to do, however if you live with the day to day experiences of oppression and the division capitalism creates, the process of getting oppressed groups to throw their ideas and experiences into the mass of the party takes time, and it’s something that some people just need to get used to.

Maxi-B

http://www.internationalsocialistne...sation-safe-space-and-the-revolutionary-party

can't believe I am immersing myself in all this, but this person is apparently based in my home town so may have a impact

 

[treelover]

The specifics of any safe space policy need to be hammered out, but in essence we just need to make it clear what we will not tolerate in our meetings, aggregates, conferences or united front work – we will not tolerate racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, disableism – along with any other things we deem unfit for good political practice. Often groups will operate a one or two strikes policy toward things like offensive language used in meetings, so that there is the opportunity to challenge the ideas politically from the floor. Types of behaviour that often don’t carry a warning are things like violence (or the threat of), sexual violence and sexual harassment

When Matilda, the art space, was in operation, it operated such a policy, I well remember a woman who is a Doctor going on about 'all the lead swingers who come to my surgery' no one challenged her....

 

[J Ed]

can't believe I am immersing myself in all this, but this person is apparently based in my home town so may have a impact

He's a student at Sheffield and an absolute fucking moron. I have seen him lie time and time again about people he disagrees with being homophobic, stay clear if you value your sanity.

 

[frogwoman]

why do people do this?

 

[sihhi]

Ex-SWP Rev Soc at Leeds Uni produces a magazine ... http://www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php/downloads/109-the-spark-1

The Spark - good thing no other magazine with such a title has ever existed or is likely to.
Barry would be proud.

 

[sihhi]

"Women's shelters reserved exclusively for Black and Asian are pitifully few"

Is this saying racially segregate the women's shelters?

 

[J Ed]

"Women's shelters reserved exclusively for Black and Asian are pitifully few"

Is this saying racially segregate the women's shelters?

WTF what possible reason could there be to want to do that?

 

[barney_pig]

The Spark - good thing no other magazine with such a title has ever existed or is likely to.
Barry would be proud.

To be frank it is a disgrace, even punk fanzines in the early eighties had better production values, and they were made by hand and felt tip.
Some wanky art student bastard made this using photoshop and £1800 worth of iMac from daddies pocket.

 

[sihhi]

To be frank it is a disgrace, even punk fanzines in the early eighties had better production values, and they were made by hand and felt tip.
Some wanky art student bastard made this using photoshop and £1800 worth of iMac from daddies pocket.

Don't knock the articles. Rarely do the media ever refer to Thatcher as Thatcher.
No one ever called her Maggie Thatcher of course, it simply never happened at any point.

Thatcher chose to adopt her husband's name, it became her name. That her Central Office promoted posters with the nickname Maggie. This doesn't matter.

 

[sihhi]

WTF what possible reason could there be to want to do that?

To organise an intersection easier.
Spare us your white outrage/Cry white tears to yourself etc etc.

 

[frogwoman]

but what about a white woman who is muslim? or who is an immigrant, or bisexual or something?

this whole idea is horrible!

 

[J Ed]

I know, we can pay an expert to decide who is white and who is coloured oppressed!

 

[sihhi]

but what about a white woman who is muslim? or who is an immigrant, or bisexual or something?

this whole idea is horrible!

This is derailment projection, frogwoman. If the idea needs critiquing bisexual Muslim immigrant women will critique it. Don't go inserting your (oppressive) white concern. All of us or none of us! University students are allies in the struggle of Muslim women against racism. Seeing as you prefer challenging racism amongst black and brown people or something, how about you sit down and have a session of silence for whites once, stop erasing bisexual Muslims voices. SMH.

 

[sihhi]

I know, we can pay an expert to decide who is white and who is coloured oppressed!

This is a dangerous game reflecting elements of white male computer privilege, critiquing ideas of anti-racism without doing anti-racism. How about you give your honky cash to someone who needs it like a Nigerian, ever thought of doing that? Say honky and they start crying.

 

[frogwoman]

This is derailment projection, frogwoman. If the idea needs critiquing bisexual Muslim immigrant women will critique it. Don't go inserting your (oppressive) white concern. All of us or none of us! University students are allies in the struggle of Muslim women against racism. Seeing as you prefer challenging racism amongst black and brown people or something, how about you sit down and have a session of silence for whites once, stop erasing bisexual Muslims voices. SMH.

fuck off back into the ghetto then. no sense of a common strggle against patriarchy and capitalism. no sense of anything just splitting up into more and more "identity groups".

 

[barney_pig]

I know, we can pay an expert to decide who is white and who is coloured oppressed!

A compulsory pass book with details of ones race, or perhaps a badge or star?

 

[sihhi]

fuck off back into the ghetto then. no sense of a common strggle against patriarchy and capitalism. no sense of anything just splitting up into more and more "identity groups".

Don't use the word ghetto. It may once have been a Venetian word against Jews but that's over - unlike slavery from Africa that's still real, matters more than European antisemitism. Now 'ghetto' it's associated with black people. Why would black Asian people be in Britain if it wasn't for slavery! Get a clue.

Common struggle LOL! So much unexamined white female privilege it's unreal. Which class of people has more unemployed - white women or Asian women?
Your common unions with black token figures at the top, they just defend the jobs and conditions of existing women ie mostly white women, screw the Asian women who are unemployed looking after children.
SMDEYAH=Shaking my damn eyes and head. Lay off the white Kool-Aid.