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SWP expulsions and squabbles

It's the moralism of Kimber's SP "critique" that's so pitiful/aggravating. Makes me want to join the most craven gradualists just to be on the other side.
 
J Ed said:
Because it's consistent with past behaviour and positions and Kimber's comments on twitter are repeated in the following article in which he approvingly seems to be calling for the overthrow of the Bangladeshi government by an Islamist protest movement. They are approvingly quoting Feb28 Justice for Bangladesh which is a far-right Islamist movement.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art/33271/London protest in solidarity with Bangladesh

Edit - if you read the article he actually addressed the Islamist rally which is even worse than I had thought.
Click to expand...

It's a crap title - 90% of these people are either Islamists or Bangladesh National Party supporters - a wide anti-Awami bloc:
'London protest in solidarity with Bangladesh' should be in ''London protest to support one faction of the Bangladeshi bourgeoisie'

They just lie and lie - the latest claim is that 2,500 Muslim scholars were killed on 5 May 2013.
Belboid be realistic, it's the SWP not knowing what it's talking about.
This is the thread to consider: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...er-hamlets-with-fascists-war-criminals.307454
 
I realise that this is somewhat off topic, but what exactly is going on in Bangladesh at the moment? All I know is that "centre left" (ie capitalist) AL won the last elections, that the "centre right" (ie capitalist) BNP are in opposition and that there's some serious street ructions going on. Are the street ructions a reaction to factory disaster, or do they predate that?
 
Nigel Irritable said:
I realise that this is somewhat off topic, but what exactly is going on in Bangladesh at the moment? All I know is that "centre left" (ie capitalist) AL won the last elections, that the "centre right" (ie capitalist) BNP are in opposition and that there's some serious street ructions going on. Are the street ructions a reaction to factory disaster, or do they predate that?
Click to expand...

they predate it - enough right-wingers of our without having to deal with these lot - they think that 2,500 people were killed on 5 May by government forces

freedommarch.jpg


The main new issue - as opposed to the traditional mass street protests/hartals of one side vs the other that's common in South Asia is the War Crimes Tribunals - the Bangladeshi local collaborators with the Pakistani army in 1971. They are getting their comeuppance and the religious lot are not happy - hence 'Kangaroo courts'.
Plus lots of racism against non-observant or even Hindu emigrants from India, and urging war amongst peoples against India and Burma - just general irritating against the government from every angle - to block the trials.
 
frogwoman said:
"islamic front uk" yeah that sounds like a "non political organisation"
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This is the figure at the heart of it Delvar Hussein Sayidi - the vice chief of Jamaat - being found guilty punishable by death of mass murder in 1971.

31_05_2011____front_____02_895439849.jpg


It's semi-existential for them. If their leaders are stuck with the genocide label around their necks anyone who is not an ultra-devout or strong Muslim believer will spurn their madrasahs and networks, particularly as - in spite of surface appearances - Bangladesh's economy like Pakistan's and Brazil's is sort of humming along despite the global downturn.

Women do increasingly have opportunities in jobs away from the home - changes a lot of things - they Jamaat lose their captive female vote.

http://bdnews24.com/economy/2013/05/08/export-growth-10.14pc-in-10-months

The annoying thing is of course that Awami League are very corrupt and police do mistreat people etc etc. What Jamaat and BNP mobilisations do is give succour to the far-right from the other side so you have:

http://hinduexistence.org/2013/03/0...er-recent-islamic-violence-by-jammat-e-islami

from the Hindu nationalist BJP RSS side in India, similarly the various attacks against the Buddhist minority in Bangladesh whip up Burmese chauvinism.

An OK ish summary on Jamaat's new strategy here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/05/201356134629980318.html

The problem is the Awami govt. can't hold the secular line they buckle under the first instance of confrontation, partly because the state gives so much money to religious schools.


Sheikh Hasina, who allowed a team of pro-Hifazat officials to see her at her home before the group's April 6 rally, says her government has already met some of the group's 13 demands.

Police arrested four bloggers whom the Hifazat described as "atheists", and there is now a home ministry committee that scans remarks considered to be anti-Islamic.
Click to expand...
 
What's particularly galling about Hasina's climbdown is the fact that a rightist gang murdered an atheist blogger in the middle of February.

Blogger.jpg


http://bdnews24.com/bangladesh/2013/02/16/killers-hacked-rajib-first-then-slit-his-throat-police


Prime Minister Hasina (on left) consoling his mother

PM_at_rajibhome-460.jpg


then betraying the basic right of people to say 'there is no proveable god, take all religious regressive nonsense out of the education system until humans have a chance to judge all material critically'

As an outsider it's depressing.
 
Click on the red stuff link on the SWP page. It seems to be saying there is a bricks and mortar shop. I hope so, there is so much room for extra lols
 
sptme said:
From the link above.

Are they saying that any one that apposes the EU is racist and aping UKIP? Plenty of people on the left oppose the EU and not for racist reason and having no connection to ukip ideas either. I thought this was the SWP position too. bizarre statement.
Click to expand...
their position was opposition to EU, so obviously not, is the answer to your question.
 
All this excitement about Kimber, the SWP and Bangladesh misses the point. Assaf's piece on Syria and the Isareli air strikes in the same SW is scathing of Hizbollah for weakening and compromising itself by supporting Assad and getting sucked into his sectarian counter revolution. So there is no automatic support of Islamist parties or movements with islamist leaders. What there is is support for the popular revolutions and upheaval across the region which sometimes means being on the same side as Islamists and sometimes not. The key thing is what makes the local working classes stronger not which brand of Islamist you're looking at. Something Counterfire has already forgotten (you won't read that sort of criticism of the 'good' Islamists Hizbollah in their stuff). And I fully expect to see the ISN edge closer and closer to Rees on all this. Its the logic of putting identity before class.
 
articul8 said:
Need to recognise the difference between islamic and islamist - since support feudal ultra-reactionaries never "makes the local working classes stronger"
Click to expand...
You're so right. That's the trouble with these new, similar words: they so often get confused. It's not like they've been widely analysed in popular discourse for ten years or something.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
All this excitement about Kimber, the SWP and Bangladesh misses the point. Assaf's piece on Syria and the Isareli air strikes in the same SW is scathing of Hizbollah for weakening and compromising itself by supporting Assad and getting sucked into his sectarian counter revolution. So there is no automatic support of Islamist parties or movements with islamist leaders. What there is is support for the popular revolutions and upheaval across the region which sometimes means being on the same side as Islamists and sometimes not. The key thing is what makes the local working classes stronger not which brand of Islamist you're looking at. Something Counterfire has already forgotten (you won't read that sort of criticism of the 'good' Islamists Hizbollah in their stuff). And I fully expect to see the ISN edge closer and closer to Rees on all this. Its the logic of putting identity before class.
Click to expand...

Can something which is dominated by Islamists (who are by definition putting religious identity before class) really be described as a popular revolution?

SWP say yes, apparently; I say no.
 
andysays said:
Can something which is dominated by Islamists (who are by definition putting religious identity before class) really be described as a popular revolution?

SWP say yes, apparently; I say no.
Click to expand...
I dont think you understand what 'popular' means. It has nothing to do with whether you like it or not
 
andysays said:
Can something which is dominated by Islamists (who are by definition putting religious identity before class) really be described as a popular revolution?

SWP say yes, apparently; I say no.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what a popular revolution is - one on a broad cross-crass basis - same as like what a popular front is compared to a united front.
 
belboid said:
I dont think you understand what 'popular' means. It has nothing to do with whether you like it or not
Click to expand...

Neither, in this context, does it simply mean "being supported by lots of people" - that would be populist.

"Popular revolution" means revolution with the support of and (crucially) in the interests of the working class. I fail to see how an Islamist "revolution" can meet that definition, so either you think it can/does or you disagree with my definition.

You're welcome to argue either of those points if you wish...
 
butchersapron said:
That's exactly what a popular revolution is - one on a broad cross-crass basis - same as like what a popular front is compared to a united front.
Click to expand...

It might be broadly based, but if it isn't in the ultimate interests of the w/c then it doesn't meet my definition.
 
andysays said:
It might be broadly based, but if it isn't in the ultimate interests of the w/c then it doesn't meet my definition.
Click to expand...
You're really misusing popular here - and possibly confusing a social revolution with a political revolution as well. It really does not mean on a strict class basis, it means the opposite. That's how it's being used here and in the general trot understanding of forms and types of revolution.
 
butchersapron said:
You're really misusing popular here - and possibly confusing a social revolution with a political revolution as well. It really does not mean on a strict class basis, it means the opposite. That's how it's being used here and in the general trot understanding of forms and types of revolution.
Click to expand...

My mistake - apols to belboid.

That's what happens when you post without enough coffee and while trying to make breakfast...
 
butchersapron said:
If i'd have been really on the ball i would have said that they're defined as popular revolutions precisely because they contain islamists...
Click to expand...

You'd better get a caffeine top-up as well then.

Back on topic, can anyone explain why, from a Trot point of view, supporting a popular revolution dominated by reactionary religious fundamentalists (just to broaden it out from the specific example here) is a good idea?
 
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