SWP expulsions and squabbles

[kavenism]

Anyway Laurie Penny is investigating so perhaps there will be more clarity:

YES! You'll be shaking with terror now Comrade Delta!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That was my point.

I know. I was backing up your point.

 

[sihhi]

At least the Serbian group's exit letter is very political. http://www.socialistunity.com/swps-serbian-section-splits-from-ist/

Sounds like a Counterfiew ally in the making. Wish I could figure out why all these groups who split who attack the swp for not being sufficiently open to the united front in europe are also the ones who attack it for not being critical enough of anti-assad allies in Syria. Is it cause in both cases these splits are in the direction of lashups with stalinists?

Aren't they carrying on the Cliffite tradition like you are, just no longer SWP members.

We resign, but we will continue to apply classical Marxism to the realities of our times and build a new left in Serbia, in the spirit of the IS. We will work with others on the left, whether or not they are members of the IST, whenever and wherever we believe this will advance the interests of the working class and the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

At least the Serbian group's exit letter is very political. http://www.socialistunity.com/swps-serbian-section-splits-from-ist/

I really fundamentally disagree with the idea that discussions of internal democracy (or for that matter discussions of how a rape accusation should or should not be handled) are apolitical.

Sounds like a Counterfiew ally in the making. Wish I could figure out why all these groups who split who attack the swp for not being sufficiently open to the united front in europe are also the ones who attack it for not being critical enough of anti-assad allies in Syria. Is it cause in both cases these splits are in the direction of lashups with stalinists?

What other group split and attacked the SWP over those two things? My memory is failing me.

I don't think that you need to look very far for explanation if those are the two issues of choice for departing groups though. After all, "anti-imperialism" as the SWP understand it and "the united front" as the SWP understand it were pretty much the totems of SWP politics and practice for well over a decade, right up until a couple of years ago.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Anyway Laurie Penny is investigating so perhaps there will be more clarity:

Bloody hell.

Nick Cohen and other former leftist media types have been sniffing about on twitter too.

 

[brogdale]

wrong thread

 

[Fozzie Bear]

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...ng-sex-assault-allegations-tell-us-about-left

 

[SpineyNorman]

Anyway Laurie Penny is investigating so perhaps there will be more clarity:

I just know I'm going to hate that article. It's going to be all about the inherent sexism of the cobweb non-twatter left and how we can't avoid being sexist and that, unlike the trendy commentariat who, thanks to their use of twitter, knowledge of privilege and intersectionality and stuff are immune to it.

 

[sihhi]

Bloody hell.

Nick Cohen and other former leftist media types have been sniffing about on twitter too.

My hunch would be that Nick Cohen uses it to further his argument in What's Left (2006) that leftist politics is cult politics.

 

[SLK]

7 men, 3 women, plus 2 unnamed TU activists

At least one is female. Not sure who the other one is.

 

[DaveCinzano]

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-...ng-sex-assault-allegations-tell-us-about-left

Paging DotCommunist:

...The writer China Mieville, a longstanding member of the SWP, told me that, like many members, he is "aghast"...

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Jesus. That's Mieville effectively saying "expel me, I fucking dare you" to the Central Committee.

 

[Balbi]

Jesus. That's Mieville effectively saying "expel me, I fucking dare you" to the Central Committee.

Always liked him.

LP shouldn't have given it the big 'but what does this say about the LEFT' and focused on a technical knockout of the SWP.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I don't think that you need to look very far for explanation if those are the two issues of choice for departing groups though. After all, "anti-imperialism" as the SWP understand it and "the united front" as the SWP understand it were pretty much the totems of SWP politics and practice for well over a decade, right up until a couple of years ago.

Hang on a minute anti imperialism was never about holding back from supporting movements of resistance in 'anti imperialist' countries. There is the minor matter of state capitalist theory and total hostility to local bourgeoisies who dress themselves up as anti imperialist. Hence the agonies Cliffites went through during the Iran - Iraq war about what to say when the USA weighed in. United Front were always temporary in the Cliffite mindset, the Rees, German, Bambery (and now Serbian IST) line was to make them much more permanent.

 

[kavenism]

It is precisely to do with the idea that, by virtue of being progressive, by virtue of fighting for equality and social justice, by virtue of, well, virtue, we are somehow above being held personally accountable when it comes to issues of race, gender and sexual violence.

Good lord, Laurie and I are on the same page. The article isn't that bad. The Identity politics jibe is clearly directly this way, but the rest I think is OK.

 

[Balbi]

I hope editor's going to claim some royalties.

 

[SLK]

I think China might have left over this actually.

He was very difficult to recruit when he was doing his PHD but one of the most convincing speakers on complex theoretical questions..

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Hang on a minute anti imperialism was never about holding back from supporting movements of resistance in 'anti imperialist' countries. There is the minor matter of state capitalist theory and total hostility to local bourgeoisies who dress themselves up as anti imperialist. Hence the agonies Cliffites went through during the Iran - Iraq war about what to say when the USA weighed in. United Front were always temporary in the Cliffite mindset, the Rees, German, Bambery (and now Serbian IST) line was to make them much more permanent.

You are showing your vintage here.

The "Rees, German, Bambery (and now Serbian IST) line" was the line of the entire SWP CC and therefore the entire SWP for more than a decade, right up to the last couple of years, after the Respect fiasco and the scapegoating of Rees triggered a reorientation.

You might regard Harman pointing out that the Vietnamese Stalinists had murdered the local Trotskyists as a high point in your political tradition (I'd even agree), but that was a long, long, time ago. Them parading Sadrists around the place on anti-war platforms and denouncing anyone who criticises them is much more recent.

That's all anyone who joined the IST within the last fifteen years knows. For them that is the core politics of the SWP's tradition.

 

[SpineyNorman]

She still doesn't understand the difference between a rejection of identity politics and the idea that issues such as sexism and racism don't matter does she? Or at least she's trying desperately to pretend she doesn't.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And she's nicked my line about him being brave and principled. Where's my cut?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

She still doesn't understand the difference between a rejection of identity politics and the idea that issues such as sexism and racism does she? Or at least she's trying desperately to pretend she doesn't.

That's not unique to her in any way. It's an absolutely standard confusion on the part of advocates of identity politics.

 

[cesare]

Good lord, Laurie and I are on the same page. The article isn't that bad. The Identity politics jibe is clearly directly this way, but the rest I think is OK.

She's still completely missing the point about the effects of identity politics though - and in using that ongoing criticism in this context (which she absolutely didn't need to do) wasn't just point scoring but also a demonstration of how divisive it can be.

 

[The39thStep]

Incidentally (for those that might have been privately face palming at my obvious lack of understanding of the nature of Leninist organisations and the SWP in particular) I took myself to re-education camp the other night and now I even have a glimmering about what 4th International and other such terms mean. I'm not sure how long I'll remember it for, but cheers anyway, button

Its the 5th that you need to get gemmed up on :Cockers lot and ex lot. U R dmpd

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Its the 5th that you need to get gemmed up on :Cockers lot and ex lot. U R dmpd

I have a feeling that Cockneyrebel may have moved on from the glorious 5th.

 

[The39thStep]

I have a feeling that Cockneyrebel may have moved on from the glorious 5th.

Where is there to go?

 

[SpineyNorman]

The 7th?

 

[emanymton]

7 men, 3 women, plus 2 unnamed TU activists

edited post was redundent

 

[emanymton]

. I have to admit that I didn't know they had a Serbian sister group in the first place.

God your slipping these days.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Andy Newman clarified the "comrade" issue in a comment on Socialist Unity. The SWP did not award the title "comrade" to the accused party and deny it to the complainant. That was added later when the discussion was being anonymised for publication. There's lots of things the SWP do actually deserve criticism for, but that apparently isn't one of them.

Fair enough, I withdraw my comments about it then.

 

[Red Cat]

I know. I was backing up your point.

Sorry

Thanks