SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

Somewhat poor taste but if one googles comrade delta's real name into google you get a rather disturbing news headline from the bbc

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting that one of the proposers of the alternative slate for cc is Roger Cox who was probably the most die hard cc loyalist that I ever met when in my fifteen years in the SWP. He spoke at Cliffs funeral.

 

[Santiagotalk]

7 men, 3 women, plus 2 unnamed TU activists

7 men and 5 women on the new CC.

 

[Pickman's model]

7 men and 5 women.

and how many unnamed tu activists?

 

[barney_pig]

One thing that I keep coming back to is the assertion of the dc
"We also however thought it was important to be clear that the disputes committee doesn’t exist to police moral, er, bourgeois morality, so we agreed that issues that weren’t relevant to us were whether the comrade was monogamous, whether they were having an affair, whether the age differences in their relationahip, because as revolutionaries we didn’t consider that should be our remit to consider issues such as those."
Today the bourgeois legal system releases the results of operation yewtree. How reassuring that such "bourgeois morality" has no relevance within a revolutionary organisation. Starts to explain the spartacists

 

[articul8]

Interesting that one of the proposers of the alternative slate for cc is Roger Cox who was probably the most die hard cc loyalist that I ever met when in my fifteen years in the SWP. He spoke at Cliffs funeral.

Apparently Roger's attitude since the conference was "there was an issue, we voted on it, we move on". At least publically at any rate, what he says inside might be different

 

[sihhi]

Slagging off "bourgeois justice" in this case is so crap, I can only see it as having been used to bully the accuser into not going to the police. It just doesn't stand up.

How on earth can you see that unless you are wilfully changing what happened. None of the backers of the women have mentioned that in the transcript. The behaviour in question was 2008, Comrade W didn't want to go to the police (no one can and no one should speculate why), made the complaint to the Disputes Committee later, explaining she didn't want to go to the police.

Stopping victims who want to from reporting a crime to the police is the work of cults. The SWP is not a 'political cult' like the Transcendental Meditation movement or the LaRouche National Labor Federation.

 

[barney_pig]

The cps has announced that in cases of sexual abuse, extra weight must be given to the word of the victim.
#no confidence in bourgeois courts

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

W not comrade W

 

[Pickman's model]

W not comrade W

because some people are more equal than others

 

[The39thStep]

Apparently Roger's attitude since the conference was "there was an issue, we voted on it, we move on". At least publically at any rate, what he says inside might be different

Must say that although I had , inevitably , political disagreements with him I always found him a very pleasant bloke with a real knowledge of work place organising and he had real credibility at work.

 

[The39thStep]

One thing that I keep coming back to is the assertion of the dc
"We also however thought it was important to be clear that the disputes committee doesn’t exist to police moral, er, bourgeois morality, so we agreed that issues that weren’t relevant to us were whether the comrade was monogamous, whether they were having an affair, whether the age differences in their relationahip, because as revolutionaries we didn’t consider that should be our remit to consider issues such as those."
Today the bourgeois legal system releases the results of operation yewtree. How reassuring that such "bourgeois morality" has no relevance within a revolutionary organisation. Starts to explain the spartacists

To be fair I don't think they would say that child sexual exploitation was only bourgeois morality

 

[articul8]

Must say that although I had , inevitably , political disagreements with him I always found him a very pleasant bloke with a real knowledge of work place organising and he had real credibility at work.

He's active in our local anticuts campaign - generally a useful person to have around unless there's some respect-esque zigzag being executed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cause it's nonsense. How does he know what they did...

He doesn't. He doesn't claim that he does.

...he talks like he isn't even aware the party has ever had these investigations before, is totally outraged that they would have them. Then tells us he knows what they must have been like.

Not quite, he presents a theory.

 

[ViolentPanda]

comrade Delta

I'm not sure too many people would now label poloshirt as a comrade, except sarcastically.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not ill considered it's just not very suprising given he clearly never took some of the core politics to heart.

Frankly, that's a hoary old one trotted out (pardon the pun) by Swappies about just about everyone who leaves or gets expelled, because it's obvious (if you're a part of "the faithful") that anyone who dissents can't possibly have been committed to the politics.

Same old reacharounds.

 

[co-op]

I think this starts off as a very promising post but it gets confused

Are you going to give me a mark out of hundred?

primarily in that bourgeois justice isn't necessarily evaluated by peers, some countries use a tribunal system, others a single magistrate or judge for example, there are panel systems. Equally bourgeois justice can be restorative and reformative and doesn't have to be vindictive and punitive particularly at the 'lower end' of criminal acts . However where you are absolutely right is that it assumes a 'a completely fictional equality of everyone who comes before it.' and it is mainly a product of property relations within wider society.

But I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that all forms of bourgeois justice have to have the process that we happen to have ended up with in the UK (eg trial by jury etc), my point was that bourgeois justice is usually pretty strong on process - because it's based on a view which looks just at the individual, and can't look at the wider social injustices of a society. And I doubt that it can ever really be meaningfully restorative because once you start down that path you're into the wider redistributive justice of a fair society - and bourgeois justice ain't going there.

 

[co-op]

How on earth can you see that unless you are wilfully changing what happened. None of the backers of the women have mentioned that in the transcript. The behaviour in question was 2008, Comrade W didn't want to go to the police (no one can and no one should speculate why), made the complaint to the Disputes Committee later, explaining she didn't want to go to the police.

Stopping victims who want to from reporting a crime to the police is the work of cults. The SWP is not a 'political cult' like the Transcendental Meditation movement or the LaRouche National Labor Federation.

Because I can't see how on earth any theoretical invocation of "bourgeois justice" as something to be avoided in this case is anything except utter bullshit - it just doesn't make sense to me. But it would make a lot of sense to me if I was the accused and I could organise an alternative form of justice run by my mates. It's as dodgy as fuck.

I'd also disagree that stopping victims reporting crimes to the police is automatically "the work of cults" - all sorts of institutions automatically try and inhibit criticism, especially from within, especially of the powerful by the weak and try and suppress the truth coming out. It's kind of normal. That's why a proper process is essential.

But FWIW I think that by doing what it's done the SWP just took a big step into cult territory since anyone who swallows this crap and "draws a line & moves on" has just become complicit in the whole thing and that's hard to admit to yourself.

 

[Red Cat]

W not comrade W

I've looked at the transcript and I don't see any reference to comrade delta apart from in the intro to the transcript.

 

[sihhi]

I'd also disagree that stopping victims reporting crimes to the police is automatically "the work of cults" - all sorts of institutions automatically try and inhibit criticism, especially from within, especially of the powerful by the weak and try and suppress the truth coming out. It's kind of normal. That's why a proper process is essential.

But FWIW I think that by doing what it's done the SWP just took a big step into cult territory since anyone who swallows this crap and "draws a line & moves on" has just become complicit in the whole thing and that's hard to admit to yourself.

Just so we're clear, you're suggesting/assuming making a report to the police would mean the truth coming out. Many people on these boards have had to 'police' in groups an individual who has done harassment - without reports being made to the police. If you don't accept how/why some people shouldn't have to report to the police for "the truth to come out", I can't add anything more, so I'm bailing out but again the SWP investigation and adjudication was inadequate.

 

[sihhi]

Anyway Laurie Penny is investigating so perhaps there will be more clarity:

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
Lots of interesting discussions with SWP members and former members about the alleged rape case today. Article coming soon.

 

[The39thStep]

Are you going to give me a mark out of hundred?




But I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that all forms of bourgeois justice have to have the process that we happen to have ended up with in the UK (eg trial by jury etc), my point was that bourgeois justice is usually pretty strong on process - because it's based on a view which looks just at the individual, and can't look at the wider social injustices of a society. And I doubt that it can ever really be meaningfully restorative because once you start down that path you're into the wider redistributive justice of a fair society - and bourgeois justice ain't going there.

The point you missed is the difference between the inner content of bourgeois justice/law and it's appearance.It is the property relationships that normally define the inner content of the legal system hence the differences under feudalism and capitalism. Its form/appearance is variable .Very often the struggle between classes may define that form or the relation of the nation state with others.

Only a minority of offenders are actually dealt with by jury btw.

There are increasingly more examples of the lower end of justice delivering restorative process where local citizens rather than magistrates discuss with offenders and their victims how best to make amends and stop offending.

I would give you a I would give you a promising 65 but recommend you read Evgeny Pashukanis, A Critical Reappraisal, Michael Head,Democracy and the Rule of Law : Marx's Critique of the Legal Form Prof Robert Fine ( but take with a pinch of salt his pro EP thompson lens)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I've looked at the transcript and I don't see any reference to comrade delta apart from in the intro to the transcript.

Andy Newman clarified the "comrade" issue in a comment on Socialist Unity. The SWP did not award the title "comrade" to the accused party and deny it to the complainant. That was added later when the discussion was being anonymised for publication. There's lots of things the SWP do actually deserve criticism for, but that apparently isn't one of them.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

According to someone who used to post here and who has very strong SWP connections on a certain well known discussion list, one fulltimer was sacked yesterday and another was to be sacked today. Also, their Serbian sister group has resigned from the IST. I have to admit that I didn't know they had a Serbian sister group in the first place.

 

[co-op]

Just so we're clear, you're suggesting/assuming making a report to the police would mean the truth coming out. Many people on these boards have had to 'police' in groups an individual who has done harassment - without reports being made to the police. If you don't accept how/why some people shouldn't have to report to the police for "the truth to come out", I can't add anything more, so I'm bailing out but again the SWP investigation and adjudication was inadequate.

Nope - I'm not suggesting that reporting a sexual assault to the police, the CPS and the courts guarantees the truth coming out - isn't this obvious?

I can see loads of reasons why things like this shouldn't, or don't get reported, of course - obvious too? FWIW I was involved with a really messy expulsion based on a sexual harassment accusation - it was a nightmare but clearly couldn't go to the police without much wider issues blowing open (eg the accused was probably in the UK illegally and therefore would be in all sorts of other shit if the authorities were involved)

What I've said really clearly is that slagging off "bourgeois justice" here is obviously bollocks; if I were the victim here I think a bit of bourgeois justice might be an improvement on what I got. And when people use arguments of such obvious ludicrousness then I suspect their motives - of course.

 

[Red Cat]

Because I can't see how on earth any theoretical invocation of "bourgeois justice" as something to be avoided in this case is anything except utter bullshit - it just doesn't make sense to me. But it would make a lot of sense to me if I was the accused and I could organise an alternative form of justice run by my mates. It's as dodgy as fuck.

I'd also disagree that stopping victims reporting crimes to the police is automatically "the work of cults" - all sorts of institutions automatically try and inhibit criticism, especially from within, especially of the powerful by the weak and try and suppress the truth coming out. It's kind of normal. That's why a proper process is essential.

Who said they stopped it? You can't tell that from the transcript. The dc didn't state that. In the transcript the dc refer to how courts and police blame the victim and put the woman on trial. Someone from the floor mentions lack of faith in bourgeois justice. You can't tell from the transcript what has occurred in this respect.

And they're not all his mates. That they know him isn't the same as being a mate. Anyone senior in the organisation is going to know him, anyone junior is unlikely to have the confidence to challenge him.

Obviously both are problematic, so ideally you have an external committee, perhaps from the SWP's sister organisations, but they'll know delta too....and I don't see any other group of people being able to do this from the pov of the SWP.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

At least the Serbian group's exit letter is very political. http://www.socialistunity.com/swps-serbian-section-splits-from-ist/

Sounds like a Counterfiew ally in the making. Wish I could figure out why all these groups who split who attack the swp for not being sufficiently open to the united front in europe are also the ones who attack it for not being critical enough of anti-assad allies in Syria. Is it cause in both cases these splits are in the direction of lashups with stalinists?

 

[sihhi]

Nope - I'm not suggesting that reporting a sexual assault to the police, the CPS and the courts guarantees the truth coming out - isn't this obvious?

So why claiming the Central Committee or whatever stopped her from reporting to the police?
That's a big thing to claim, given how that's not even what her supporters claimed.

Responding to the resignation piece I'd agree with this - bourgeois management techniques:

The fact that a full-time party worker was not allowed to continue in her post for raising similar complaints of sexual harassment against the said CC member speaks volumes, as do the expulsions of comrades who raised their voices against the leadership’s handling of the matter. This is conduct that reflects bourgeois management techniques, not the revolutionary socialist struggle for women’s liberation.

 

[cesare]

Incidentally (for those that might have been privately face palming at my obvious lack of understanding of the nature of Leninist organisations and the SWP in particular) I took myself to re-education camp the other night and now I even have a glimmering about what 4th International and other such terms mean. I'm not sure how long I'll remember it for, but cheers anyway, button

 

[Red Cat]

Andy Newman clarified the "comrade" issue in a comment on Socialist Unity. The SWP did not award the title "comrade" to the accused party and deny it to the complainant. That was added later when the discussion was being anonymised for publication. There's lots of things the SWP do actually deserve criticism for, but that apparently isn't one of them.

That was my point.