SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpineyNorman]

Young SWPers posting that lenin's tomb article on facebook. Looks like they're breaking cover.

One thing I've been thinking about. In the counterfire split there was an obvious leadership with some credibility (both in terms with relationship to St. Tony of Cliff and in terms of experience etc) in Rees and German. But with this lot there's not really - I'm sure there's very good activists among them but no 'names'. So I wonder if there's any chance of them splitting into one group or whether it might get messy.

I also wonder if that seymour article is in part his way of positioning himself at the top of any future split.

 

[newbie]

There isn't enough bile to conjure up the shame and disgrace of all of this, nor the palpable physical revulsion, nor the visceral contempt building, nor the sense of betrayal and rage, nor the literal physical and emotional shattering of people exposed to the growing madness day in and day out.

blimey

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That's it. They've gone above ground. The leadership will either have to start mass expulsions or back down, thereby suffering the biggest defeat in the organisation's history.

 

[kavenism]

blimey

The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. Or something like that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I also wonder if that seymour article is in part his way of positioning himself at the top of any future split.

I doubt if it's that cynical. If Seymour wants to be in the leadership of any group stemming from this row, he would be anyway.

The main reason he's chosen to go public is tactical: Lenin's Tomb is a means of communicating with the membership directly and in large numbers which the leadership can't control or limit. It's pretty much the only site the SWP frequent en masse.

 

[barney_pig]

Laurie penny gets some brownie points for that article- and so does Seymour,

 

[frogwoman]

What do people here think of the idea of a code of conduct regarding acceptable/non-acceptable behaviour regarding racism, sexism, behaviour towards other comrades etc for people in parties like the SWP or SP to sign up to, and to have to sign up to when they join? Obviously it could get abused and used to justify expulsions etc, but it could go some way towards addressing the internal culture of the party, although there would obviously have to be other measures put in place as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

What do people here think of the idea of a code of conduct regarding acceptable/non-acceptable behaviour regarding racism, sexism, behaviour towards other comrades etc for people in parties like the SWP or SP to sign up to, and to have to sign up to when they join? Obviously it could get abused and used to justify expulsions etc, but it could go some way towards addressing the internal culture of the party, although there would obviously have to be other measures put in place as well.

it's very fucking simple: do unto others as you would be done to yourself.

 

[SpineyNorman]

What do people here think of the idea of a code of conduct regarding acceptable/non-acceptable behaviour regarding racism, sexism, behaviour towards other comrades etc for people in parties like the SWP or SP to sign up to, and to have to sign up to when they join? Obviously it could get abused and used to justify expulsions etc, but it could go some way towards addressing the internal culture of the party, although there would obviously have to be other measures put in place as well.

The US section of the CWI has something very similar to that. When I heard about it I can't say I was keen - don't really like the implicit suggestion that any male recruit is a potential sex pest and I think it would make potential recruits think they're immediately under suspicion. Got to say I'm rethinking it now but my view is still that getting people to sign up to some kind of code of conduct won't stop them doing it - after all this stuff is illegal anyway - if they're going to risk prison the loss of their party card is unlikely to stop them. And if that's needed to let people, especially senior members, know harrassment isn't OK then you've got to ask serious questions about the level of political education in the organization.

On balance I still think the best way to deal with this is to ensure the correct procedures are in place to deal with it when it does happen and that people know where to report this and are comfortable that they will be dealt with respectfully.

 

[frogwoman]

On balance I still think the best way to deal with this is to ensure the correct procedures are in place to deal with it when it does happen and that people know where to report this and are comfortable that they will be dealt with respectfully.

yep

 

[SpackleFrog]

I had the same reaction as SpineyNorman to the US section of the CWI and their 'contract', but I am beginning to think something similar could be useful... perhaps more with a focus on how to get help if there is a problem.

Anyone know what the two opposition factions are up to? Surely Seymour will be expelled right?

 

[lazythursday]

I had the same reaction as SpineyNorman to the US section of the CWI and their 'contract',

But surely a large proportion of employers have policies that relate to racist, sexist, homophobic behaviour etc? What's the difference? I notice Counterfire have something about this in their constitution, although it doesn't really spell out what it means in practice. To be honest I'm surprised that most political parties don't have something like this, even if in reality it is tokenistic.

 

[SpackleFrog]

When I discussed it with them that was what they said-that you did that when you started a new job, so why not when you join a party? I agree it would be somewhat tokenistic, but at least you're telling members from the start what to do if they have a problem.

 

[equationgirl]

But surely a large proportion of employers have policies that relate to racist, sexist, homophobic behaviour etc? What's the difference? I notice Counterfire have something about this in their constitution, although it doesn't really spell out what it means in practice. To be honest I'm surprised that most political parties don't have something like this, even if in reality it is tokenistic.

They do. It's best practice, if not an actual requirement legally.

 

[cesare]

They do. It's best practice, if not an actual requirement legally.

If they don't have a policy, communicate that policy, and train people about it; the organisation is vicariously liable for the acts of its employees during the course of work. In other words in order to avoid picking up an uncapped tab for the misconduct of its employees, they have to take "reasonable" steps to prevent it.

 

[emanymton]

I had the same reaction as SpineyNorman to the US section of the CWI and their 'contract', but I am beginning to think something similar could be useful... perhaps more with a focus on how to get help if there is a problem.

Anyone know what the two opposition factions are up to? Surely Seymour will be expelled right?

Maybe, but in theory all disciplinary hearings have to go to the disputes committee (I imagine they are going to get very busy), and that means that in theory no expulsions can be confirmed until next years conference. Bear in mind as well that the 4 who have already been 'expelled' have still to go to the DC, so it is possible that their case may even rumble on until next years conferree. Of course they could just expel people on mass so their is no one left in the SWP to fight the expulsions.

 

[The39thStep]

Re-education about dumping by text was possibly one of the best threads ever. I miss Cheadle High St

The problem was the left turned into Cheadle High Street

 

[The39thStep]

Andy Newman either taken for a ride with Indie journalist or covering his back:

I had a reasonably long chat with Jerome Taylor, the Independent journalist, and he had a firm grasp of the issues involved, but inevitably in the course of writing a relatively short article for his paper, the complexity cannot be reflected. The quote about Sharia law was to a certain extent “put into my mouth” and I think reflects Jerome Taylor’s own views rather more than mine. Jerome struck me as a good journalist, and I don’t think he did anything wrong, it is just that he probably interpreted our conversation based upon different political assumptions from mine.

Newman is effectively arguing that the SWP should have brought the Police in and that Delta should have been befre the Courts:

“I believe that the SWP think they’re outside the law”

 

[The39thStep]

At this rate there will hardly be anyone left to speak at Marxism.

The Black Hand is free to do History and Politics of the Credit Crunch

 

[The39thStep]

Laurie penny gets some brownie points for that article- and so does Seymour,

Not sure about that what so ever with regards to LP . All her article is is a vindication of her own identity politics over a cobweb left group.

 

[cesare]

Not sure about that what so ever with regards to LP . All her article is is a vindication of her own identity politics over a cobweb left group.

Aye, by including the political point scoring what she did was hijack something that stood alone as a serious issue and turn it into a vindication.

Mind you, people did that with the "tout" issue to have a go at the anarchists too.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

What do people here think of the idea of a code of conduct regarding acceptable/non-acceptable behaviour regarding racism, sexism, behaviour towards other comrades etc for people in parties like the SWP or SP to sign up to, and to have to sign up to when they join? Obviously it could get abused and used to justify expulsions etc, but it could go some way towards addressing the internal culture of the party, although there would obviously have to be other measures put in place as well.

The central crux of this argument though isn't about sexual violence or sexual harassment but about accountability and party democracy

 

[The39thStep]

The central crux of this argument though isn't about sexual violence or sexual harassment but about accountability and party democracy

Tell us more.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Tell us more.

the allegations of rape are a hook on which to stand long-term grievances about how the SWP deals with criticism, internal issues and opponents on the left. It could have been a number of different issues which sparked the current schism.

 

[killer b]

I'm sure W will be delighted to have her ordeal reduced to a secondary concern after the needs of the party. Again.

 

[The39thStep]

the allegations of rape are a hook on which to stand long-term grievances about how the SWP deals with criticism, internal issues and opponents on the left. It could have been a number of different issues which sparked the current schism.

That is the theory but what is the evidence? and whose long term grievances? and where did how the SWP deals with opponents on the left come into it?

Unless if course you are talking about posters on here rather than party members

 

[Red Cat]

Whose theory?

 

[The39thStep]

Whose theory?

Divisive Cotton's. If he is talking about some posters on here who twitch through the curtains every time the SWP is mentioned he might have a point.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't think that's what he meant.

I think he said it quite clearly so I don't know how to reword it to make it clearer.

Surely the evidence is in the crisis itself? I don't believe there would be such a crisis if there weren't these issues bubbling away under the surface.

Why do you think this is happening?

 

[Red Cat]

I'm sure W will be delighted to have her ordeal reduced to a secondary concern after the needs of the party. Again.

I don't think people use hooks consciously.

ETA: Sometimes people use hooks consciously. I think in this case the response is too emotional and visceral to be seen in such a way.