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SWP expulsions and squabbles

Very good point, cesare. Critiques can't be cast in stone. Times and social conditions change and our theories have to be adapted to new circumstances. Praxis, etc.
That's not to say that I don't have contemporaneous criticisms of some forms of feminism (I'm thinking some of the rad-fem born-women-only separatist elements here) but I believe we should be a bit more specific about the criticisms rather than just undermining feminism in total.
 
Shouldn't people listen to what she has to say (before concluding that everything has been/is being handled properly)?

There's a reason why every single statement here about how people understand the issue to have been handled has been prefaced with "as I currently understand it" or had other strong caveats about waiting for further information attached. Nobody - nobody - is simply accepting blithe assurances that everything was handled correctly and refusing to listen to other information.
 
The reason that I include (c) in particular on this thread is because I think feminism/women's movement politics should be integrated with working class politics, not undermined by utilising historical criticisms ad infinitum. As far as I'm concerned it contributes to the fracturing of the left into component issues rather than concentrating on pulling together the various struggles against oppression of the working class. EG "creeping feminism" etc

Well, I agree with the broad point that dismissal of "feminism" as if it was one thing, premised largely on collapsing all of its various strands into liberal feminism, is extremely unhelpful. As is treating it all as having the logic of political separatism, as the SWP's cruder material often does.

But there are, as you note in your post after this, very real currents and tendencies within the feminist movement that do need to treated very sceptically. And some of those currents do go back to the 90s or 80s or 70s, or at least echo the arguments of earlier times. I think we have to be careful to avoid a kind of "year zero" approach where we treat current arguments and movements as if they have no history, just as much as we have to be careful to avoid treating people today as if they were merely convenient stand ins for people we disagreed with years ago.
 
The reason that I include (c) in particular on this thread is because I think feminism/women's movement politics should be integrated with working class politics, not undermined by utilising historical criticisms ad infinitum. As far as I'm concerned it contributes to the fracturing of the left into component issues rather than concentrating on pulling together the various struggles against oppression of the working class. EG "creeping feminism" etc[/quote

I can't separate out working class struggle without the the fight against women's oppression. However I don't see feminism as the same as pro working class politics.
 
Just re reading around the Beyond The Fragments debate and although Leninist type parties aren't my cup of tea any more I quite liked Hallas's take on it in this interview :

The SWP is easily the biggest group on the revolutionary left. But at the “debate of the decade” between Tony Benn and Paul Foot a sizeable section of the audience was clearly more attracted to the sort of non-party notions preached by the Beyond the Fragments people. How do you evaluate such currents?
How many were attracted in a positive sense is a question, but there is no doubt that Beyond the Fragments has become a focus for “apartyist” and indeed anti-party sentiment.
Perhaps focus is not quite the right won. it implies something too definite, too clear. In fact there are at least three different strands or tendencies that, for the moment, rally behind or at any rate use the Beyond the Fragments banner.
There is the specifically feminist current which thinks primarily in terms of sex rather than class. They are, for the most part, highly educated, highly articulate, petty-bourgeois women who are in a relatively privileged economic situation with respect to the vast majority of working class women and also with respect to the majority of working class men as well.
Unlike the so-called “radical-feminists” they have some insight into the realities of class society, but they have a foot in each camp – the camp of the female half of the educated “professional” class (represented very well in The Guardian’s women’s page) and the very different camp of the strikers at Chix or Grunwick.
Some of them can perhaps be won to revolutionary politics; the majority cannot. Like the corresponding men, their “rebellion” is limited, constricted, by their class situation. Individuals can transcend this; social layers cannot.
Then there is a quasi-libertarian trend which provides most of the substantial arguments for Beyond the Fragments.
There is nothing peculiarly feminist about them. Most of the arguments they use were put long ago by either Proudhon or Bakunin against Marx himself. They are the arguments of the (male dominated) nineteenth century anti-Marxist left. Nowadays these arguments are called “anti-Leninist” although most of them were advanced before Lenin was born. Their social basis was, and is, petty bourgeois.
“Have these gentlemen (and ladies too – DH) ever seen a revolution?” asked Engels over a century ago, “A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will on the other by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon – authoritarian means, if such there be at all ...” There is really nothing that can be added to this – from a revolutionary point of view.
However, the most important component of the “apartyist” current rallying Beyond the Fragments belongs to neither of these two trends. This majority component is what Paul Foot calls the NANA – non-aligned, non-activists.
Amongst the children of 1968 and their successors there are many, a great many, who have made the transition from radicalised student to “lefty” – or not so very lefty – polytechnic lecturer, civil servant or whatever) Some have broken completely with their past but many seek to reconcile the revolutionary aspiration of their youth with their present growing income, comfort and conservatism.
The solution? Formal leftism (and often “academic Marxism”) combined with a sharp, even venomous, hostility to any serious revolutionary organisation – which means, above all, the SWP.
The future of the Beyond the Fragments current? Insofar as it is a question of building a serious tendency – and a conference is being called for this purpose – we can say with complete confidence that it will come to nothing. It will come to nothing precisely because of the divergent trends within it, the majority NANA trend being organically and violently opposed to any revolutionary organisational commitment, however libertarian’, and this trend has a real social basis, it is not merely a difference of views. Many, if not most, of these people will end up supporting the Labour Party.
But as an unorganised political current Beyond the Fragments will survive its organisational collapse. It will survive for a long time because it is one of the more important forms of “left” hostility to the revolutionary party and therefore has its uses for various reformist tendencies, left and not so left.
 
Ok, but clearly the complainant is extremely angry about the way her complaint has been handled, such that she has resigned from the party and denounced the AGS who she had trusted to deal with the matter appropriately. Shouldn't people listen to what she has to say (before concluding that everything has been/is being handled properly)?

Of course they should listen to what she's got to say - I have no idea what makes you think anyone is saying otherwise - nobody has. It's a bit dishonest for you to imply otherwise. What she says is clearly cause for concern and I'd be outraged if anyone said it wasn't.

But they should wait until the appeals committee has had the chance to complete their investigation before drawing conclusions as there might be information that you don't have and it might be worth hearing what they and the EC have to say. I don't think that's unreasonable.
 
Just re reading around the Beyond The Fragments debate and although Leninist type parties aren't my cup of tea any more I quite liked Hallas's take on it in this interview

It's quite an effective polemical dismissal of the Beyond the Fragments crowd, but I'm not really sure how relevant it is to cesare's argument about feminism.

Feminism is a real social movement, and thus variegated and factional as real movements tend to be. It's existence as a movement is a broadly positive thing, which doesn't mean that all of the ideas presented within it are of use to socialists. However, many of the ideas that have arisen within that movement are very useful. Insisting on a built in division between Marxism and Marxist-Feminism, as opposed to seeing the latter as a series of attempts to develop a Marxist understanding of women's oppression and liberation, seems to me to be counterproductive.

Lots of this sort of thinking is inherited from earlier decades without any real consideration or examination. In the early women's liberation movement a lot of Marxists and socialist radicals rejected the term feminism and insisted on women's liberation instead. At that point they were counterposing women's liberation (ie a socialist struggle) to "feminism", as in bourgeois feminism. And if I'd been around then, I think I'd have agreed with them. But they lost that terminological battle. Today's "women's liberationists" think of themselves as Marxist-Feminists or socialist-feminists. "Feminism" has become the catch all term for opposition to women's oppression of any kind, and an insistence of using the term in an archaic way is self-defeating.
 
the39thstep said:
I am interested because there are very few examples of local community led responses to domestic violence.

Hm! to my discredit, I'd not considered it before from a communities point of view. Thinking about that. I'd view sexist violence as having a continuum of causes, from pure interpersonal inadequacy at one end to sadistic exercise of power at the other, in a hierarchy of gender dominated by "malesness" but where individual male behaviour is often more pathalogical than specifically dominating. If that's reasonable then one way could be organising neighbourhood-based courses for men on conflict resolution, appropriate sexual behavior, and generally 'coping' better in difficult or confusing situations personal inadequacies can cause huge oppression.

Other courses could be for women, on avoiding or escaping violent situations. Male and female community mentors could be helpful too. I should think some of this is all going on but probably to almost all socialists' (and anarchists'?) blissful ignorance....

As the SP statement pointed out, campaigns for Council housing and better welfare services are crucial too.

That's all more to do with preventing violence and abuse and giving women maximum control where it does happen I guess. Dealing with offenders, and the general category of outright power abusers, are we looking at an inevitably criminal approach here? Apart from perhaps increasing community awareness and stigmatization of sexist violence. In sharp contradiction to drugs/property/"fight on a night out" type crime I think these categories necessitate prison in order to protect the victims. Serial harassment/predatory violence cases especially.

? ? ?
 
It's quite an effective polemical dismissal of the Beyond the Fragments crowd, but I'm not really sure how relevant it is to cesare's argument about feminism.

Feminism is a real social movement, and thus variegated and factional as real movements tend to be. It's existence as a movement is a broadly positive thing, which doesn't mean that all of the ideas presented within it are of use to socialists. However, many of the ideas that have arisen within that movement are very useful. Insisting on a built in division between Marxism and Marxist-Feminism, as opposed to seeing the latter as a series of attempts to develop a Marxist understanding of women's oppression and liberation, seems to me to be counterproductive.

Lots of this sort of thinking is inherited from earlier decades without any real consideration or examination. In the early women's liberation movement a lot of Marxists and socialist radicals rejected the term feminism and insisted on women's liberation instead. At that point they were counterposing women's liberation (ie a socialist struggle) to "feminism", as in bourgeois feminism. And if I'd been around then, I think I'd have agreed with them. But they lost that terminological battle. Today's "women's liberationists" think of themselves as Marxist-Feminists or socialist-feminists. "Feminism" has become the catch all term for opposition to women's oppression of any kind, and an insistence of using the term in an archaic way is self-defeating.

I didn't post that quote as a response to Cesare but thought it provided quite a useful insight into a previous period where a similar set of arguments to those that have risen following the SWP case/split occurred. his conclusion that the natural home for all those strands would be Labour was right and I would suggest that that will be the main direction as soon as Left Unity fails.
 
Hm! to my discredit, I'd not considered it before from a communities point of view. Thinking about that. I'd view sexist violence as having a continuum of causes, from pure interpersonal inadequacy at one end to sadistic exercise of power at the other, in a hierarchy of gender dominated by "malesness" but where individual male behaviour is often more pathalogical than specifically dominating. If that's reasonable then one way could be organising neighbourhood-based courses for men on conflict resolution, appropriate sexual behavior, and generally 'coping' better in difficult or confusing situations personal inadequacies can cause huge oppression.

Other courses could be for women, on avoiding or escaping violent situations. Male and female community mentors could be helpful too. I should think some of this is all going on but probably to almost all socialists' (and anarchists'?) blissful ignorance....

As the SP statement pointed out, campaigns for Council housing and better welfare services are crucial too.

That's all more to do with preventing violence and abuse and giving women maximum control where it does happen I guess. Dealing with offenders, and the general category of outright power abusers, are we looking at an inevitably criminal approach here? Apart from perhaps increasing community awareness and stigmatization of sexist violence. In sharp contradiction to drugs/property/"fight on a night out" type crime I think these categories necessitate prison in order to protect the victims. Serial harassment/predatory violence cases especially.

? ? ?

I am not against prison sentences fro violent offenders. When I get time I will try and explain what we have been doing at work with domestic abuse survivors and community led domestic abuse groups.
 
I didn't post that quote as a response to Cesare but thought it provided quite a useful insight into a previous period where a similar set of arguments to those that have risen following the SWP case/split occurred. his conclusion that the natural home for all those strands would be Labour was right and I would suggest that that will be the main direction as soon as Left Unity fails.

It's not impossible, but there is a massive difference between the attractiveness of the Labour left back then and now. The BtF/Socialist Movement people were collapsing into a broad, living, movement. If - and they may well do so - the Left Unity people collapse into Labour it will be in the articul8 style instead, atomised, because there's nothing much there for them.
 
It's not impossible, but there is a massive difference between the attractiveness of the Labour left back then and now. The BtF/Socialist Movement people were collapsing into a broad, living, movement. If - and they may well do so - the Left Unity people collapse into Labour it will be in the articul8 style instead, atomised, because there's nothing much there for them.

I was arguing with some ex lefty type women ( all at one time Trots or fellow travellers) now in the labour party who said that labour , in their opinion, was the home for feminists. It was more women friendly, it promoted women friendly policies and had pioneered all women shortlists. I had to cut the conversation quick at it was extra time in the Spurs game .
 
and surely what you think feminism is. Unity in action comrade.
Any chance we could agree on Solidarity in action, comrade? "Unity" is (for me) redolent of TU bosses, the LP and left vanguardism. Solidarity is standing with your comrades even if it's not your specific position/affecting you directly.
 
Any chance we could agree on Solidarity in action, comrade? "Unity" is (for me) redolent of TU bosses, the LP and left vanguardism. Solidarity is standing with your comrades even if it's not your specific position/affecting you directly.

How about we alternate?
 
It's quite an effective polemical dismissal of the Beyond the Fragments crowd, but I'm not really sure how relevant it is to cesare's argument about feminism.

No it's not it is the epitome of bad left writing - a theoretically crude polemical diatribe full of ad hominem attacks, and notable for both its lack of critical awareness and its deficit of imagination. I'm mean it's hardly as if BtF argued their insights emerged ex-nihilo without any historical precedents. Rowbotham is a historical FFS, she knows very well what alternative traditions she's drawing on.

And I hate this sociological reductionism where whole schools of thought are casually dismissed as "petit bourgeois" (something I note Hannah Sell has also picked up) - as though Engels wasn't a bourgeois, or Lenin, or Trotsky a petit-bourgeois. What Hallas misses is that the new social movements - though of course they emerged in class society and don't emerge from nowhere - can't be reduced or subordinated to some pre-given identity category. The idea that socialism might need to be re-thought in the light of feminist insights or insights from the environmental movement is ruled out from the outset.

As for
we can say with complete confidence that it will come to nothing
Well, the fact we're still discussing it now shows that it still relevant to debates the left is having today - which is also why it's being republished and 250 people have signed up to a conference about it:
http://www.bbk.ac.uk/events-calendar/after-beyond-the-fragments

Meanwhile the SWP is in crisis, having come to nothing.
 
If someone has admitted being guilty of sexual assault wouldn't the police get involved?

Also if someone has admitted sexual assault and the person who has been assaulted wants them expelled I can't see how an organisation can do anything but expel them. How can the person who has been assaulted be expected to remain in the same organisation or branch as that person? Fair enough if they decide to accept their remorse, but if they want the person expelled I can't see what other option there is.
 
If someone has admitted being guilty of sexual assault wouldn't the police get involved?

Also if someone has admitted sexual assault and the person who has been assaulted wants them expelled I can't see how an organisation can do anything but expel them. How can the person who has been assaulted be expected to remain in the same organisation or branch as that person? Fair enough if they decide to accept their remorse, but if they want the person expelled I can't see what other option there is.
There could be other acceptable forms of sanction than expulsion, depending on the form/severity of the offence.
 
There could be other acceptable forms of sanction than expulsion, depending on the form/severity of the offence.

I agree but surely only if the person who has been assaulted is ok with that? If they are not and say they don't want to be in the same organisation as them and want them expelled, what else can an organisation do?
 
If someone has admitted being guilty of sexual assault wouldn't the police get involved?

Also if someone has admitted sexual assault and the person who has been assaulted wants them expelled I can't see how an organisation can do anything but expel them. How can the person who has been assaulted be expected to remain in the same organisation or branch as that person? Fair enough if they decide to accept their remorse, but if they want the person expelled I can't see what other option there is.

She has been told at every stage that the party would supports her if she chose to take it to the police - she has chosen not to. It would be very unfair to try to force her to.

As for the second paragraph, there is an ongoing investigation so it's not over yet. It would be inappropriate to say any more.
 
No it's not it is the epitome of bad left writing - a theoretically crude polemical diatribe full of ad hominem attacks, and notable for both its lack of critical awareness and its deficit of imagination.

You poor hurt feelings are showing.

articul8 said:
And I hate this sociological reductionism where whole schools of thought are casually dismissed as "petit bourgeois" (something I note Hannah Sell has also picked up)

Are you seriously suggesting that we can't differentiate between Marxist/socialist/class struggle feminism on the one hand and Bourgeois/liberal feminism on the other?

articul8 said:
Well, the fact we're still discussing it now shows that it still relevant to debates the left is having today

You've already exceeded your disingenuity quota for one week, so give it a rest, eh?

The piece made testable, falsifiable, predictions about whether or not the Beyond the Fragments conferences and milieu more generally would be able to build an organised current. Those predictions were as follows:

1) They would not build an organised current of any significance with any longevity. This turned out to be true.
2) That nevertheless some of the ideas would hang around in a disorganised form. This turned out to be true.
3) That most of these people would collapse into Labour. This turned out to be true.

Three prediction, and he was right on the nose with all of them. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything or even most things he said, but he clearly had a pretty shrewd understanding of what that particular movement represented and where it was going. And here's an extra prediction for you, no charge, you can have it for free: Nothing of organisational significance will come out of a new but smaller and older BTF conference this time either.
 
She has been told at every stage that the party would supports her if she chose to take it to the police - she has chosen not to. It would be very unfair to try to force her to.

As for the second paragraph, there is an ongoing investigation so it's not over yet. It would be inappropriate to say any more.

These weren't questions about this case, as you say there is an on-going investigation and I agree that should be left there as no-one here knows the facts.

Absolutely agree that someone should not be forced to do anything, only supported. But my general understanding is that the police will now take action in cases of domestic violence and sexual assault even if the victim doesn't want them to.

Again it was a general point that I can't see what an organisation can do but expel someone if someone sexually assaults another member, and that person wants them expelled. There could be other options, but I can't think what they could be.
 
Are you seriously suggesting that we can't differentiate between Marxist/socialist/class struggle feminism on the one hand and Bourgeois/liberal feminism on the other?

No - I'm suggesting that strands of feminism that acknowledge the importance of class but also offer a critique of vanguardist politics cannot simply be dismissed as "petit-bourgeois" - it's lazy, inaccurate and reflects a crude understanding of social relations.

The piece made testable, falsifiable, predictions about whether or not the Beyond the Fragments conferences and milieu more generally would be able to build an organised current. Those predictions were as follows:

1) They would not build an organised current of any significance with any longevity. This turned out to be true.
Did they claim they were building an organised current?

2) That nevertheless some of the ideas would hang around in a disorganised form. This turned out to be true.
by definition a body of thought suspicious of quasi-militaristic organisational structure would look "disorganised" from a Leninist perspective

3) That most of these people would collapse into Labour. This turned out to be true.
some are on the Labour left, some joined Labour and left, and others stayed out of Labour altogether.

Nothing of organisational significance will come out of a new but smaller and older BTF conference this time either.
Given that for a Leninist "organisational significance" effectively means the very thing BtF sets out to reject, then this is a self-fulfilling, but utterly vacuous prophecy.

If anything it's just taking some backward elements rather longer than expected to realise what BtF already had wayback when.
 
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