SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Nigel Irritable]

Not at all - I've posted the account up so people can judge for themselves whether "someone putting his hand on her thigh" is a reasonable description of what is being talked about

Your initial post contained one incorrect element and was so vague as to be necessarily misleading in the context of the thread. You are now quoting a sentence from me while excising the part where I described the incident as groping, which I can only assume is further mischief on your part. Groping is an assault, not something different from and less than an assault.

Once more: This was a serious complaint which was, as I understand it, taken very seriously. That the incident happened was not in any doubt, there's no question of not believing the victim, nor of suggesting that it wasn't traumatic. Again as I understand it, the central dispute was not over the incident itself but over the appropriate sanction.

I should point out again, that the above is based on what may be incomplete information, and I'm more than willing to be corrected if it is. I'm not willing however to get into an extended exchange with someone who seems primarily interested in scoring points about it. We both know the person this happened to and am not going to squabble with you about it like this.

 

[muscovyduck]

"groping someone's thigh in a pub" - have you read the link in my post above? Do you still think this sounds appropriate? It sounds much more like a form of sexual assault.

Groping is sexual assault, and as someone who's had their thigh groped on two separate occasions already when I'm barely a year above the age of consent I find it disgusting that you think groping somehow doesn't count.

 

[articul8]

Jit's not the whitewash articul8 seems so keen to present it as.

FFS - The person concerned has left the SP issuing a statement that *she* is disgusted by the way her complaint has been handled. I think that's of relevance to the topic on this thread. How is this me trying to "present" it in a bad way or "scoring points"? I'm glad we're now clear that what is being alleged is serious.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm glad we're now clear that what is being alleged is serious.

And still the urge to use something serious to score points persists. I'll leave you to it.

 

[articul8]

Groping is sexual assault, and as someone who's had their thigh groped on two separate occasions already when I'm barely a year above the age of consent I find it disgusting that you think groping somehow doesn't count.

where the fuck do you get the impression I said that? I'm saying precisely the opposite - that such groping IS sexual assault and very serious.

 

[muscovyduck]

FFS - The person concerned has left the SP issuing a statement that *she* is disgusted by the way her complaint has been handled. I think that's of relevance to the topic on this thread. How is this me trying to "present" it in a bad way or "scoring points"? I'm glad we're now clear that what is being alleged is serious.

I think the fact you thought anyone who's commented on it on this thread felt like it wasn't serious says a lot tbh

 

[muscovyduck]

"groping someone's thigh in a pub" - have you read the link in my post above? Do you still think this sounds appropriate? It sounds much more like a form of sexual assault.

b) It's pretty low to make light of what she clearly felt was a sexual assault, not "putting his hand on her thigh" but what she claims was sustained attempt to grope her - OK it's not rape or domestic violence, but she was evidently traumatised by the incident:
http://sakollantai.wordpress.com/20...ony-of-sexual-assault-in-the-labour-movement/

 

[articul8]

Jesus - read her account and see whether "someone putting his hand on her thigh" sounds like an adequate description of it.

 

[cesare]

articul8 was quoting Nigel irritable if you read it back, muscovyduck

 

[muscovyduck]

Jesus - read her account and see whether "someone putting his hand on her thigh" sounds like an adequate description of it.

My point is that you think putting your hand on someone's thigh somehow isn't sexual assault. Stop changing it to suit what you want it to be.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

articul8 was quoting Nigel irritable if you read it back, muscovyduck

Well, he was partially quoting me, carefully excising the part about groping, because he's spent this entire discussion trying to imply in a rather distasteful way that others don't think that the issue is serious (despite the word serious being repeated over and over again until it almost starts to lose meaning). But the parts quoted above weren't from me. That was articul8 differentiating between groping and assault all on his own.

 

[cesare]

Well, he was partially quoting me, carefully excising the part about groping, because he's spent this entire discussion trying to imply in a rather distasteful way that others don't think that the issue is serious (despite the word serious being repeated over and over again until it almost starts to lose meaning). But the parts quoted above weren't from me. That was articul8 differentiating between groping and assault all on his own.

If you'd described it as "a man rubbing his hands up and down her inner thighs in a pub (ie a form of groping, which is serious)" rather than "a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub (ie a form of groping, which is serious)" or even just "groping" he possibly wouldn't have picked you up on it in the first place.

 

[articul8]

exactly, I started off by calling it "sexual abuse" so hardly trivialising it. Nigel then said it wasn't it as "a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub" which hardly does the incident justice. He introduced the term "groping" as synonymous with his previous description - and I objected it was "more like sexual assault" (Ok I shouldn't have said "more like" but I didn't mean there was any substantial difference).

The idea that "groping" was somehow less serious than sexual assault was the exact opposite of what I intended.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

he possibly wouldn't have picked you up on it in the first place.

You are giving him too much credit. He's trying to construct a narrative in which this is being downplayed, despite everyone who responds to him going on and on and on about how it's serious. If it was just an issue of him picking up my first comment in a way that wasn't intended, he wouldn't have insisted on quoting the same half of that sentence over and over again in the face of repeated detailed responses, which emphasised over and over again that the incident is to be taken seriously and that it amounted to an assault. At a certain point, dishonesty becomes the only viable explanation. Just as for instance, if I was to keep quoting his crass differentiation between groping and assault in the face of his more recent comments, you'd have to conclude that I was playing games.

But I'm really not interested in further dragging out the exchange with him. Everybody on the thread, despite the distasteful bickering, is in practical terms in agreement that groping is an assault and has to be taken seriously. As I understand it, this incident was taken seriously. If it comes to light that it was not, then I'll be extremely angry. Until then I'm reluctant to get into it further.

 

[articul8]

the complainant is alleging it is being downplayed (ie. not me). Your first post in reaction to this appeared to corroborate it. Thankfully we're all now clear it is serious.

 

[The39thStep]

By listening to people without asking questions. It might not be "an issue" issue, but it is there and damages people, some groups - women and young - will experience it in a more pressing way than others.

Nones denying that its not there.The question is why a poster would say that it is a pressing issue.

 

[The39thStep]

Just so people don't wonder why I've not said anything about this, there is an ongoing investigation by the appeals committee so I'm not going to comment on this until that's over. But it's not the whitewash articul8 seems so keen to present it as.

A sort of 'no comment' position?

 

[cesare]

Nones denying that its not there.The question is why a poster would say that it is a pressing issue.

Women and the young are the majority of the working class. Sexism/harassment is a substantial part of the oppression of the working class, so therefore a pressing issue.

 

[SpackleFrog]

To clarify:

LW admits responsibility and remorse. All agree it was serious, it was sexual assault, it was totally unacceptable, it should not have happened. The issue is whether LW should be expelled. The complainant (from what I know-not in possession of all facts) wants LW expelled I think. As yet the Appeals Committee hasn't made a decision. Beyond that I don't know if there's much more to say.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

As an aside, if anyone thinks that these arguments on the British left can get somewhat heated, remind me to tell you about the time a member of one Australian left group was murdered by her abusive boyfriend, a member of a different left group. Then friends of his who were in the same left group attended his trial in his support.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A sort of 'no comment' position?

Yes - I think this is a sensible position to take when you don't have all the facts but are aware of some things that haven't been reported yet.

 

[The39thStep]

Women and the young are the majority of the working class. Sexism/harassment is a substantial part of the oppression of the working class, so therefore a pressing issue.

So what is being done about it and by whom on the left and anarchist scene. Every one will say they are against it but what is being done in working class communities where it is occurring? How is tackling this pressing issue manifesting itself in action?

I am interested because there are very few examples of local community led responses to domestic violence.

 

[tenniselbow]

Nones denying that its not there.The question is why a poster would say that it is a pressing issue.

To be fair he didn't. He called it a "pressing question" which, in the context of discussing the ISJ article and the SWP's position on this, makes more sense than you're giving credit for I think.

Totally agree with you point about the left's engagement with working class communities though.

 

[cesare]

So what is being done about it and by whom on the left and anarchist scene. Every one will say they are against it but what is being done in working class communities where it is occurring? How is tackling this pressing issue manifesting itself in action?

I am interested because there are very few examples of local community led responses to domestic violence.

I can't answer what is being done about it and by whom on the left - apart from point out that women (and some men) have been trying to do something about it for decades. I think that (a) it's seen as a women's issue rather than a working class one, and women have been active and vocal for a long time on this so let them get on with it sort of thing; (b) there's an element of relinquishing responsibility to the state; and (c) that it's undermined by those that persist in viewing feminism as a fly trapped in amber back in the 80s with all the identity politics baggage it carries from there.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I can't answer what is being done about it and by whom on the left - apart from point out that women (and some men) have been trying to do something about it for decades. I think that (a) it's seen as a women's issue rather than a working class one, and women have been active and vocal for a long time on this so let them get on with it sort of thing; (b) there's an element of relinquishing responsibility to the state; and (c) that it's undermined by those that persist in viewing feminism as a fly trapped in amber back in the 80s with all the identity politics baggage it carries from there.

The Campaign Against Domestic Violence in the 90s had a significant impact in the union movement, at least in terms of encouraging the unions to take formal stances on the issue and how to deal with it. But I don't think it ever had much noticeable impact in communities or outside the labour movement. It's a difficult issue to get traction on because, by the very nature of the crime, it tends to happen behind closed doors, while victims are isolated.

 

[cesare]

The Campaign Against Domestic Violence in the 90s had a significant impact in the union movement, at least in terms of encouraging the unions to take formal stances on the issue and how to deal with it. But I don't think it ever had much noticeable impact in communities or outside the labour movement. It's a difficult issue to get traction on because, by the very nature of the crime, it tends to happen behind closed doors, while victims are isolated.

The additional point there is that unions by their nature (and I'm not saying that they're not changing btw, eg Unite's community stuff atm) are productive labour oriented so there's not automatic traction in communities.

 

[articul8]

To clarify:

LW admits responsibility and remorse. All agree it was serious, it was sexual assault, it was totally unacceptable, it should not have happened. The issue is whether LW should be expelled. The complainant (from what I know-not in possession of all facts) wants LW expelled I think. As yet the Appeals Committee hasn't made a decision. Beyond that I don't know if there's much more to say.

Ok, but clearly the complainant is extremely angry about the way her complaint has been handled, such that she has resigned from the party and denounced the AGS who she had trusted to deal with the matter appropriately. Shouldn't people listen to what she has to say (before concluding that everything has been/is being handled properly)?

 

[The39thStep]

I can't answer what is being done about it and by whom on the left - apart from point out that women (and some men) have been trying to do something about it for decades. I think that (a) it's seen as a women's issue rather than a working class one, and women have been active and vocal for a long time on this so let them get on with it sort of thing; (b) there's an element of relinquishing responsibility to the state; and (c) that it's undermined by those that persist in viewing feminism as a fly trapped in amber back in the 80s with all the identity politics baggage it carries from there.

I very much agree with you on both a) and b) . Can't say the same for c)

 

[cesare]

I very much agree with you on both a) and b) . Can't say the same for c)

The reason that I include (c) in particular on this thread is because I think feminism/women's movement politics should be integrated with working class politics, not undermined by utilising historical criticisms ad infinitum. As far as I'm concerned it contributes to the fracturing of the left into component issues rather than concentrating on pulling together the various struggles against oppression of the working class. EG "creeping feminism" etc

 

[tenniselbow]

Very good point, cesare. Critiques can't be cast in stone. Times and social conditions change and our theories have to be adapted to new circumstances. Praxis, etc.