SWP expulsions and squabbles

[belboid]

Just seen Counterfires 2 day alternative to Marxism, a rather more impressive list of non-party speakers:
'Dangerous Ideas for Dangerous Times' featuring David Harvey, Tariq Ali, Lindsey German, Tony Benn, Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Nina Power, Stathis Kouvelakis, Laurie Penny, Paul Le Blanc, Danielle Obono and many, many more

 

[SpackleFrog]

Just seen Counterfires 2 day alternative to Marxism, a rather more impressive list of non-party speakers:
'Dangerous Ideas for Dangerous Times' featuring David Harvey, Tariq Ali, Lindsey German, Tony Benn, Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Nina Power, Stathis Kouvelakis, Laurie Penny, Paul Le Blanc, Danielle Obono and many, many more

Not bad. I wonder if we could get David Harvey at Socialism?

 

[butchersapron]

Just seen Counterfires 2 day alternative to Marxism, a rather more impressive list of non-party speakers:
'Dangerous Ideas for Dangerous Times' featuring David Harvey, Tariq Ali, Lindsey German, Tony Benn, Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Nina Power, Stathis Kouvelakis, Laurie Penny, Paul Le Blanc, Danielle Obono and many, many more

Still the same old faces (and that's not David Harvey, it's Ken Bates).

 

[butchersapron]

You mean the Rev Socialists who called for support for Mursi not so long ago? The same Mursi that has just initiated a curfew?

The latest ISJ has yet another massively long article about Lenin saying the same stuff they've said a million times before - we find the real reason for it at the conclusion - to back up that decision to support Morsi.

 

[sihhi]

Still the same old faces (and that's not David Harvey, it's Ken Bates).

Danielle Obono is new - a couple of years ago would have been Besancenot or Melenchon.

EDITED Paul Le Blanc is going Marxism and Conuterfire Festieval.

 

[Das Uberdog]

you wanna get yourselves down to spring guys! ;P

http://spring-conference-2013.com/conference-timetable/

 

[butchersapron]

Danielle Obono is new - a couple of years ago would have been Besancenot or Melenchon.

Paul Le Blanc is a score US ISO doesn't go to Marxism but elsewhere Counterfire 1 - 0 SWP

And the reason for that is to allow him to continue his trouncing of the prof on the key figure for w/c communities today...Lenin.

 

[sihhi]

And the reason for that is to allow him to continue his trouncing of the prof on the key figure for w/c communities today...Lenin.

What else could there be for ISO tradition? Lenin or Luxemburg or Trotsky - that's basically it.

Variations on "If Lenin/Luxemburg/Trotsky were alive today, s/he would be in __________."

 

[imposs1904]

Danielle Obono is new - a couple of years ago would have been Besancenot or Melenchon.

Paul Le Blanc is a score US ISO doesn't go to Marxism but elsewhere Counterfire 1 - 0 SWP

Paul Le Bland is also listed as being a speaker at this year's Marxism.

 

[sihhi]

Paul Le Bland is also listed as being a speaker at this year's Marxism.

Sorry, yes he is. What does it mean? Will he try to attack Callinicos by name at Marxism in a talk not a debate.

 

[belboid]

Paul Le Blanc is a score US ISO doesn't go to Marxism but elsewhere Counterfire 1 - 0 SWP

except, PLBis going to Marxism as well. Somewhat surprisingly.

 

[treelover]

Just seen Counterfires 2 day alternative to Marxism, a rather more impressive list of non-party speakers:
'Dangerous Ideas for Dangerous Times' featuring David Harvey, Tariq Ali, Lindsey German, Tony Benn, Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Nina Power, Stathis Kouvelakis, Laurie Penny, Paul Le Blanc, Danielle Obono and many, many more

I wonder who Left Unity would have at a day school?, are there any 'blue sky' left wing thinkers, there was a guy at the benefits meeting I went to last night, Dr Simon Duffy from the Centre For (genuine) Welfare Reform,had some good ideas, citizens income, he was a key player in the personal budgets for disabled people movement, but he I think favours radical change in the NHS, maybe some privatisation.I would imagine someone would come from Syriza, Uk Uncut, some original thinking coming from the Sussex students, anymore?

 

[belboid]

Sorry, yes he is. What does it mean? Will he try to attack Callinicos by name at Marxism in a talk not a debate.

Paul doesnt attack, comrade, he puts forward thoughtful and nuanced criticisms!

 

[Scribbling S]

That Counterfire conference looks ok, but the "Dangerous Ideas for Dangerous Times" title made me thing of this .

 

[articul8]

A rather lengthy article by Hannah Sell on a range of issues covered by this thread:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/ar...ist-perspective-on-fighting-womens-oppression

She misleadingly conflates the statement with a resolution advocating support for it at UNISON conference - signing the statement certainly does not imply support for no-platforming leftists. The only line of the actual statement she quibbles with is that about presumption of believing the woman - which is hardly to say that this should be a default position with no futher regard to the facts of the case! It's more the difference between the reaction "is there any truth to these allegations?" with "it's relatively rare that allegations of this kind are made without any grounds, so let's take this very seriously"...

 

[articul8]

SP member resigns in disgust about the way they handled her own allegation of sexual abuse against a leading comrade:
http://shortarguments.wordpress.com...he-socialist-party-her-letter-to-hannah-sell/

(and in response to leyton96 and SpineyNorman - I am not "enjoying" this or shit-stirring - believe it or not. Actually I find it very depressing)

 

[belboid]

Another Mayo!

Is there a plot to emulsify the trots?

 

[sihhi]

SP member resigns in disgust about the way they handled her own allegation of sexual abuse against a leading comrade:
http://shortarguments.wordpress.com...he-socialist-party-her-letter-to-hannah-sell/

(and in response to leyton96 and SpineyNorman - I am not "enjoying" this or shit-stirring - believe it or not. Actually I find it very depressing)

This Les Woodward of Remploy UNITE?

 

[cesare]

I realise it's just anecdotal, but my own experience in organisations starting to address sexual harassment as an issue (if the organisation looks as though it's taking it seriously) is that there's an immediate response of loads of complaints. It's as if a great big can of worms has been opened and it can have the effect of people within the organisations reacting defensively/with suspicion. It's not something that carries on for long after the initial sorting out, but it's a difficult time for all concerned.

 

[articul8]

This Les Woodward of Remploy UNITE?

Isn't he GMB? But yes think it's the Remploy guy (S Wales based so tallies)

I can't help feeling that organisations would deal with these issues differently if the allegations didn't involve "leading figures".

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Strange how anyone accused of anything unpleasant is currently getting an instantaneous and unexpected promotion to being a "leading member" of their organisation. The incident in question here involved a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub (ie a form of groping, which is serious), and the dispute, as I understand it, is not over whether the incident happened or should be taken seriously but over the appropriate punishment.

 

[articul8]

Strange how anyone accused of anything unpleasant is currently getting an instantaneous and unexpected promotion to being a "leading member" of their organisation. The incident in question here involved a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub (ie a form of groping), and the dispute, as I understand it, is not over whether the incident happened or should be taken seriously but over the appropriate punishment.

a) he's a national TU official recently involved in a high profile campaign - he's not some Joe that came along to the branch last week.
b) It's pretty low to make light of what she clearly felt was a sexual assault, not "putting his hand on her thigh" but what she claims was sustained attempt to grope her - OK it's not rape or domestic violence, but she was evidently traumatised by the incident:
http://sakollantai.wordpress.com/20...ony-of-sexual-assault-in-the-labour-movement/

Funny how you react just as defensively as the uber-SWP loyalists did when the boot's on the other foot.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

a) he's a national TU official recently involved in a high profile campaign - he's not some Joe that came along to the branch last week.

He's a rank and file member of the SP.

b) It's pretty low to make light of what she clearly felt was a sexual assault, not "putting his hand on her thigh" but what she claims was sustained attempt to grope her - OK it's not rape or domestic violence, but she was evidently traumatised by the incident

I'm not making light of what happened. Which is why I pointed out (a) that the incident amounted to groping and that (b) it has to be taken seriously. I'd rather not have commented on it at all, particularly as I know the woman it happened to a little. But as, in your haste to put the boot into the SP, you'd introduced the issue as one involving a leading SP member and also described the incident with the lurid but vague description "sexual abuse" which on this thread in particular is likely to be read a certain way, I thought a little clarification would be appropriate.

There is no doubt that the incident was traumatic, and I am not for a second suggesting otherwise or that it shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[articul8]

national trade union officials are not what most people would understand by the term "rank and file".

I also knew her a little. But I think your description of the incident as "a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub" is more than a little misleading given her account of it (inserted above, since it's in the public domain).

I am not for a second suggesting otherwise or that it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Good - but judging by her letter to Hannah she doesn't feel that it has been. In fact she things people are making light of it and accusing her of playing the martyr. So your post above does little to refute that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

national trade union officials are not what most people would understand by the term "rank and file".

You are deliberately confusing positions someone may hold outside an organisation with positions they hold in it.

But I think your description of the incident as "a man putting his hand on someone's thigh in a pub" is more than a little misleading given her account of it (inserted above, since it's in the public domain)

My description was a great deal less misleading than you risked being. The incident involved a drunk man groping someone's thigh in a pub for an extended period. That's not trivial. It's an assault and it very obviously was experienced as traumatic. That has to be taken seriously. As I understand it, and it could be that I'm not in possession of all the relevant information, it was taken very seriously. There's no question about whether it happened, nor any question of not believing the victim. The dispute, again as I understand it, is over the appropriate punishment.

 

[articul8]

"groping someone's thigh in a pub" - have you read the link in my post above? Do you still think this sounds appropriate? It sounds much more like a form of sexual assault.

 

[cesare]

he groped my inner thighs, rubbing and groaning as I shocked
and very frightened did my best to get out of his grip. This pervert
dehumanised me – and my body. He physically revulses me.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

"groping someone's thigh in a pub" - have you read the link in my post above? Do you still think this sounds appropriate? It sounds much more like a form of sexual assault.

Groping someone is a form of sexual assault. Always. Describing something as groping is not downplaying it. I'm not trying to differentiate between the two, but to clarify what sort of assault is being talked about, in circumstances where you seem absolutely determined to create confusion with other forms of assault or abuse.

 

[articul8]

Not at all - I've posted the account up so people can judge for themselves whether "someone putting his hand on her thigh" is a reasonable description of what is being talked about

 

[SpineyNorman]

Just so people don't wonder why I've not said anything about this, there is an ongoing investigation by the appeals committee so I'm not going to comment on this until that's over. But it's not the whitewash articul8 seems so keen to present it as.