SWP expulsions and squabbles

[emanymton]

What party is he in and what similar stuff does he support? If you're saying the SWP is the same and so there is an equivalence then you've just fucked yourself. Is there an equivalence?

Seriously what?

I am just interested in peoples thoughts, my opinion of loach drooped massively because of his stance on the issue. I find it a little odd that these people left the SWP in large part because of the leaderships continued support for a man accused of rape, yet there is not evener a murmur of criticism of Loach.

 

[emanymton]

are you a member of isn? if not, you can't access their forum.

Well they let me in an I am not a member.

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on rmp3 I wanted to hear people's thoughts on emanymton's post.

Yes, let's, emy set up a fake account to the join the iSN and found to his outrage there was no discssusion on something he thought that there should be. S/he then tried to use that to hypocrisy hunt. What next?

 

[SpineyNorman]

discokermit was definitely right about blocking rmp3, I thoroughly recommend it. Makes reading the thread a bit confusing though - at one point I thought I was reading an argument between VP and BA in which neither seemed to have understood what the other was on about

If everyone else ignores him too I won't even have to deal with the confusion issue

 

[bolshiebhoy]

are you a member of isn? if not, you can't access their forum.

Is nothing sacred on the internet.

 

[discokermit]

Well they let me in an I am not a member.

the forum? or are you talking about the blog?

 

[emanymton]

Explain exactly and slowly who here is trapped by the logic? Explain the similarity to covering rape up as a policy and condition of party membership as opposed to being a bit of dim-wit. Explain why you posted this.

I see you have dropped equivalence down to similarity, saves me making that point.

For Myself and I would guess many others any attempt at a cover up is not really the point. It was the messed up investigation in the first place and the continued backing of the accused.

Why are you trying to defend Loach the ISN?

 

[butchersapron]

Seriously what?

I am just interested in peoples thoughts, my opinion of loach drooped massively because of his stance on the issue. I find it a little odd that these people left the SWP in large part because of the leaderships continued support for a man accused of rape, yet there is not evener a murmur of criticism of Loach.

It's quite simple - you have been rumbled. Before you've even got over your disbelief that the SWP could do what it has done you're onto look at these hypocrites. Why did you even leave?

 

[ViolentPanda]

myth>


reality, the SWP as an organisation PROVIDE and actively encouraged the reading of many of the "originals written by long dead comrades".

They don't provide arseache. They SELL, and at the cover price, rather than the (discounted) price they pay for it. No-one sells at cover price anymore, unless they're on a screw.

I read capital volume 1 as part of a reading group with the SWP.

It's not really a political argument, just pointing out that violent panda said we do, is not entirely true. In fact some may say it's a misrepresentation of reality.

Except that you've misrepresented my point. I haven't claimed that the Swappies stop people reading Marx, I've said that they don't tend to recommend those authors as first-stop material.

Way to go! RMP3 shits on his own shoes yet again!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Seriously what?

I am just interested in peoples thoughts, my opinion of loach drooped massively because of his stance on the issue. I find it a little odd that these people left the SWP in large part because of the leaderships continued support for a man accused of rape, yet there is not evener a murmur of criticism of Loach.

Almost make you wonder if there was more to their exit than one case.

 

[emanymton]

Yes, let's, emy set up a fake account to the join the iSN and found to his outrage there was no discssusion on something he thought that there should be. S/he then tried to use that to hypocrisy hunt. What next?

First of all it is not a fake account at all there seems to be quite a few people on there who are not in the ISN, I have no idea of their selection process. And I am not outrages at all, I would have just expected it to come up.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

It's quite simple - you have been rumbled. Before you've even got over your disbelief that the SWP could do what it has done you're onto look at these hypocrites. Why did you even leave?

Jeesus wept and you people accuse the swp of witch hunting. Emanymton clearly doesn't automatically defend the swp, in fact has been highly critical of it, yet say something that even looks vaugely critical of the splitters and you get called a party mole. Unbelievable.

 

[emanymton]

It's quite simple - you have been rumbled. Before you've even got over your disbelief that the SWP could do what it has done you're onto look at these hypocrites. Why did you even leave?

You really have lost it.

 

[butchersapron]

First of all it is not a fake account at all there seems to be quite a few people on there who are not in the ISN, I have no idea of there selection process. And I am not outrages at all, I would have just expected it to come up.

Bring it up, make it an issue - as a participant.

 

[butchersapron]

Jeesus wept and you people accuse the swp of witch hunting. Emanymton clearly doesn't automatically defend the swp, in fact has been highly critical of it, yet say something that even looks vaugely critical of the splitters and you get called a party mole. Unbelievable.

He wasn't. I noticed all previous posts, all questions, just disappeared for you - again.

 

[butchersapron]

You really have lost it.

Hang on, did you or did you not repeatedly say that you could not believe that a whole series of swp related things could not have happened? And have they happened?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Not just anarchists. And although you repeatedly define him as a working class militant, I reserve that term for those who have or had jobs and who gave a lead to other workers. Long before this crisis I cringed at the faux proletarian tough-guy culture of those around Martin Smith and I see MB as sharing the same thuggish and exaggeratedly workerist attitude. Such pose might be good for impressing former Trinity students, but it is far, far, away from the world of the miners, say, of my old branch in Doncaster, or people like Frank Henderson, the life-long organiser of car workers.

Is the hypocrisy though. They constantly castigate the SWP for middle-class member
s.
PS. As someone from a solidly poor working class background, I've never had a problem with middle-class revolutionaries.

 

[oskarsdrum]

Hang on everyone, I think this Loach row is founded on misconception - the blog that emany linked to is the Independent Socialists Network, who are part of TUSC, and I think at least partly ex-SWP, but a totally different outfit to the International Socialists Network. I don't think the new ISN has said anything about Left Unity, Loach or related subjects. Obviously choosing an acronym that's already taken by a similar group is a predictable cause of confusion but there we go.

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on everyone, I think this Loach row is founded on misconception - the blog that emany linked to is the Independent Socialists Network, who are part of TUSC, and I think at least partly ex-SWP, but a totally different outfit to the International Socialists Network. I don't think the new ISN has said anything about Left Unity, Loach or related subjects. Obviously choosing an acronym that's already taken by a similar group is a predictable cause of confusion but there we go.

Irrelevant, the point is to shout that you are not clean either.

 

[emanymton]

Hang on, did you or did you not repeatedly say that you could not believe that a whole series of swp related things could not have happened? And have they happened?

I recall being extremely skeptical about the case in Sheffield, when it was first raised by Nick Cohen and I recall saying that my experiences were very different. I have never doubted any of the events around the initial cases

 

[discokermit]

OK, I'll try something.
Anyone else find it a bit odd that the ISN is bigging up Ken Loach and his appeal for left unity considering he is a supporter of alleged rapist Julian Assange. Unless he has changed his mind and I missed it. Now I don't mean we should just write Loach off because of it, but if you read the (admittedly very limited) discussion on their forum the issue does not come up at all.

the link is for the independant socialist network. not international.

 

[sihhi]

emy as I understand it, the reason people left the SWP was not simply about the treatment of a rape in the first instance (only a small handful like Jack Brindelli did), the 100+ forming the ISN have left as a result of the massive March conference rigging - ie the party structures in general AND the specific botching of the Delta case.

The SWP via their journalist in the Socialist Review were bigging up the Ken Loach call for left unity back in 2009:

My feeling is that we need to think of the regroupment of the left in Britain in terms of the European left now. The European left is a project obviously bigger than any one group. I am very encouraged by the events in France right now and the development of the Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste. The European left, which is so big, will just swallow up the differences between the different groups on the left over here. I've been in meetings where we've talked about this for 45 years, and organisationally are we any further forward in all that time? If you want to be depressed, that's the depressing thing. On the optimistic side the need just gets more and more intense. It was urgent after the Iraq war, but now even more urgent with the collapse of the banks and increasing unemployment, industries closing down and so on, and the environmental disaster that's awaiting the next generation. The pressure to unite just gets bigger and bigger.

This was at the time that the SWP was joining/had joined TUSC.

Richard Seymour - one public figure in ISN - is no particular fan of Loach himself, although, as I understand it, he does support the call for left unity:

Ken Loach was the next speaker, and after a couple of jokes that went down well, he repeated much of what Salma Yaqoob had just said. Then he talked about the idea of "reclaiming the Labour Party". The Labour party had always had a contradiction at its heart, he said, in that the only way it could deliver reforms in favour of working people was when employers could make big enough profits. The employers register their demands, what they require in order to be profitable, and those demands are now more extreme than ever - keep the anti-union laws, make them tougher, end welfarism, privatise what's public. Blairism is the extreme end of the cold logic of Labourism.

 

[butchersapron]

I recall being extremely skeptical about the case in Sheffield, when it was first raised by Nick Cohen and I recall saying that my experiences were very different. I have never doubted any of the events around the initial cases

Did you ever notice that your experiences and sheff were diff things? Did your initial scepetism disappear ? If so then what are you you doing suggesting that i've "lost it" when i remind you that this happened?

 

[emanymton]

Hang on everyone, I think this Loach row is founded on misconception - the blog that emany linked to is the Independent Socialists Network, who are part of TUSC, and I think at least partly ex-SWP, but a totally different outfit to the International Socialists Network. I don't think the new ISN has said anything about Left Unity, Loach or related subjects. Obviously choosing an acronym that's already taken by a similar group is a predictable cause of confusion but there we go.

Sorry that is my error I just looked for a link to the loach thing and picked the worst possible one, you are correct it is not on the blog but is in the private forum, also Tow Walker, who seems to be talking a lead in the ISN, has been supporting it on twitter.

 

[sihhi]

OK, I'll try something.
Anyone else find it a bit odd that the ISN is bigging up Ken Loach and his appeal for left unity considering he is a supporter of alleged rapist Julian Assange.

As discokermit has pointed out this ISN was a network formed in 2011 by Pete McClaren and others to encourage a wider approach for TUSC to campaign and organise as TUSC in between electoral cycles.
It's not the SWP split.

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry that is my error I just looked for a link to the loach thing and picked the worst possible one, you are correct it is not on the blog but is in the private forum, also Tow Walker, who seems to be talking a lead in the ISN, has been supporting it on twitter.

Now you'll lay out the strict similarities right?

 

[emanymton]

Now you'll lay out the strict similarities right?

Nope cos I never said there were any.

 

[emanymton]

Did you ever notice that your experiences and sheff were diff things? Did your initial scepetism disappear ? If so then what are you you doing suggesting that i've "lost it" when i remind you that this happened?

Yes and Yes, and I said you had lost it as you said I should still be a member of the SWP.

 

[butchersapron]

Nope cos I never said there were any.

This was the whole point of the comparison, that it was implicit there but you didn't have to - you're now backing away (where oh where has bb gone).

 

[emanymton]

Last time I try and get this thread vaguely back on track