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SWP expulsions and squabbles

Just a quick note, this thread and the discussions on it have encouraged me to get Lars T Lih's Lenin Rediscovered, which I've just started reading, and is great. It really shows how what I, and a lot of people, take for granted as Leninism was something cobbled together by Cliff and those guys in the mid-70's, or even earlier with guys like James P Cannon and so on. I can't recommend it enough.
 
Just a quick note, this thread and the discussions on it have encouraged me to get Lars T Lih's Lenin Rediscovered, which I've just started reading, and is great. It really shows how what I, and a lot of people, take for granted as Leninism was something cobbled together by Cliff and those guys in the mid-70's, or even earlier with guys like James P Cannon and so on. I can't recommend it enough.

What's his (her?) key points Delroy ? (yeh, yeh, I know "just read the thing yourself" ... but to encourage me/us to read it, what are the standout points made that got you recommending it ?) Because I have to admit as a former fervant "Leninist" I'm ever more in the camp of thinking Lenin was actually one of the truly great fuck up merchants of world history. I still love "State & Revolution" , but am increasingly of the view that Lenin actually only wrote it as a cynical tactic- of- the- moment document, perhaps to encourage and promote yet more chaos in the Russian Empire - which a well organised Bolshevik Party could exploit. In other words I think the permanent , in places neo-anarchist , certainly inspiring revolutionery democratic, brilliance of the book was an accident, an aberration from the entire drift of Lenin's usual thought and practice !
 
What's his (her?) key points Delroy ? (yeh, yeh, I know "just read the thing yourself" ... but to encourage me/us to read it, what are the standout points made that got you recommending it ?) Because I have to admit as a former fervant "Leninist" I'm ever more in the camp of thinking Lenin was actually one of the truly great fuck up merchants of world history. I still love "State & Revolution" , but am increasingly of the view that Lenin actually only wrote it as a cynical tactic- of- the- moment document, perhaps to encourage and promote yet more chaos in the Russian Empire - which a well organised Bolshevik Party could exploit. In other words I think the permanent , in places neo-anarchist , certainly inspiring revolutionery democratic, brilliance of the book was an accident, an aberration from the entire drift of Lenin's usual thought and practice !

I'm about 20 pages into it so far so probably better off asking butchers or someone else who's read the full thing if you want a proper summary, but I've already flicked through various sections and it's contradicted a lot of my assumptions about Lenin. It's a bit of an epic tome, 700 pages or something, and there's a lot of historical information about the way the RSDLP functioned, and how Lenin group functioned within it, that I was utterly unaware of from the trot-centric version of events I've managed to pick up in my few years of involvement.

EDIT - oh and as an aside, totally agree with you about State and Revolution. You've made some really good posts recently too and I've enjoyed reading them.
 
What's his (her?) key points Delroy ? (yeh, yeh, I know "just read the thing yourself" ... but to encourage me/us to read it, what are the standout points made that got you recommending it ?) Because I have to admit as a former fervant "Leninist" I'm ever more in the camp of thinking Lenin was actually one of the truly great fuck up merchants of world history. I still love "State & Revolution" , but am increasingly of the view that Lenin actually only wrote it as a cynical tactic- of- the- moment document, perhaps to encourage and promote yet more chaos in the Russian Empire - which a well organised Bolshevik Party could exploit. In other words I think the permanent , in places neo-anarchist , certainly inspiring revolutionery democratic, brilliance of the book was an accident, an aberration from the entire drift of Lenin's usual thought and practice !
but it looks like a pretty extensive review. Lenin Revisited
www.erudit.org/revue/ttr/2005/v18/n2/015775ar.pdf

I think if you copy and paste that address , it will download. otherwise just Google.
 
5.0 out of 5 stars pathbreaking work on the early Lenin, December 21, 2006
By​
Paul LeBlanc (Pittsburgh, PA, USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This review is from: Lenin Rediscovered: What Is to Be Done? in Context (Historical Materialism Book Series,) (Hardcover)
This fat and expensive book is an amazingly thorough work of scholarship. It overturns what author Lars Lih terms "the textbook version" of the early Lenin.

The standard story of the founder of modern Communism, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, (advanced during the Cold War both by anti-Communist ideologues and by supporters of the Stalin dictatorship) is that Lenin advocated a super-centralized, hyper-disciplined "party of a new type" which would lead the working class in overturning capitalism, then rule in the name of the working class through a one-party dictatorship. This allegedly is what Lenin wrote about in his 1902 classic "What Is To Be Done," and this is what he accomplished through Russia's 1917 revolution and in the years after (until he died in 1923) -- which paved the way for the totalitarian regime of Joseph Stalin.

Through painstaking work with Russian-language sources plus a good deal of other material as well, Lih demolishes this story. One of the reasons this book is so huge is that it includes a completely new English translation of "What Is To Be Done." Lih critically scrutinizes the scholarship of many different scholars associated with "the textbook version" and essentially blows most of them out of the water (often with considerable humor). This is definitely not light reading, nor is it designed for novices in the field Russian history. But the writing is clear and quite interesting, the documentation generally compelling and persuasive, and the points made quite important for an understanding of Marxism, Communism, and Russian history.

Lih argues that Lenin was committed to overthrowing the tsarist autocracy and establishing democracy and freedom in Russia (through a "bourgeois-democratic revolution") as a precondition for organizing a working-class movement that would eventually carry out a revolution to replace capitalism (understood as an economic dictatorship) with socialism (understood as an economic democracy). As Lih shows, this orientation was consistent with the ideas of Karl Marx and of the democratic-socialist orientation of the German Social-Democratic Party of the early 20th century. The split in the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party in 1903, between Lenin's Bolshevik (majority) faction and the Mensheviks (minority) was NOT over his comrades' opposition to his allegedly undemocratic ideas, but over the refusal of a large cluster to party members to go along with a democratically-made decision over who would be on the organization's editorial board. Lih argues that Lenin was actually more democratic and less elitist than his factional opponenets!

One limitation of the book is that is stops in 1905. A related, and quite serious, limitation is that it doesn't really deal with the question of why a revolutionary like Lenin and an organization such as the Bolshevik party, so committed to democracy, should carry out a revolution which really did result in a terrible dictatorship -- and which under Stalin (who claimed to be doing it all "under the banner of Lenin") certainly became one of the worst dictatorships in the history of the world.

This problem is addressed by one of Lih's teachers, Robert C. Tucker, in a fine two-volume biography of Stalin. I also address this problem in MARX, LENIN, AND THE REVOLUTIONARY EXPERIENCE (New York: Routledge, 2006). It will be interesting to see how Lih himself deals with this in some of his future work.
 
Just a quick note, this thread and the discussions on it have encouraged me to get Lars T Lih's Lenin Rediscovered, which I've just started reading, and is great. It really shows how what I, and a lot of people, take for granted as Leninism was something cobbled together by Cliff and those guys in the mid-70's, or even earlier with guys like James P Cannon and so on. I can't recommend it enough.
I'm not sure that it was (and it wasn't just Cliff and Cannon but the whole Trotskyist movement since the 1930s including Ernst Mandel, Ted Grant, etc, as well as the world's Communist parties whether pro-Moscow or pro-Peking or pro-Albania). It is the opposite, historical revisionist view that Lenin wasn't really a Leninist but just a leftwing Social Democrat, that seems the less plausible.
 
Funny how when folk leave the CWI how often we find out from people still in the CWI that those who left are are lacking personal skills.....

Nope, I disliked Dermot Connolly almost from the moment I met him. I'm a hipster Dermot Connolly hater in that regard.
I get on well with 95% of people who've left the CWI and there's a fair few still in I'd happily feign an injury to avoid speaking to.
 
the fact of the matter is this. The SWP clearly stated their position. Of all people, of all people you would think students would read. There was no proof, absolutely none of a Machiavellian tactic to let the SWSS students believe a load of bollocks. there is nothing in their actions that the SWP cannot explain from a different perspective from the one Norman gave.
Slightly more complicated than your making out. The organisational structure, specifically of allowing anybody and their dog to join, without vetting their politics, allows for people to hold contradictory positions at odds with your theory. Partly, the election of a slate, for the CC is a reflection that the leadership don't trust the membership or the education level of the membership. Meaning there is probably a greater gulf in political understanding, between leadership and rank and file, in the SWP than probably any other organisation on the left.
 
based on no evidence whatsoever and very little thought, the name that popped into my head was dave hayes. dunno why, except i thought the "whatever happened to dave hayes" bit could have been a little gag and/or a weak (possibly deliberately so) attempt at misdirection.
Just realised I know what happened to DH. He works at Sheffield Hallam Uni, still in the party, signed the CC statement
 
Slightly more complicated than your making out. The organisational structure, specifically of allowing anybody and their dog to join, without vetting their politics, allows for people to hold contradictory positions at odds with your theory. Partly, the election of a slate, for the CC is a reflection that the leadership don't trust the membership or the education level of the membership. Meaning there is probably a greater gulf in political understanding, between leadership and rank and file, in the SWP than probably any other organisation on the left.

How would prospective recruits politics be vetted. Some form of candidate membership/assessment?
 
never said he did, just wanted you to double underlined to frog woman the REAL SWP theoretical position.how do you possibly take on this
how do I convince you, it is possible that your impression of events, is maybe different to somebody else's impression of events? You have no hard evidence for that. You have no statements from the SWP stating that. That is just your impression, you state as if hard fact.

How would you know?
After all, you reckon you haven't been a Swappie for years, that you have little contact with them, and that you don't keep up with the latest dogma. :)
 
Slightly more complicated than your making out. The organisational structure, specifically of allowing anybody and their dog to join, without vetting their politics, allows for people to hold contradictory positions at odds with your theory. Partly, the election of a slate, for the CC is a reflection that the leadership don't trust the membership or the education level of the membership. Meaning there is probably a greater gulf in political understanding, between leadership and rank and file, in the SWP than probably any other organisation on the left.
:) essentially I agree with you. Just nitpicking a few points.

SW argue Everybody, everybody from anarchists through to the CC of the SWP has contradictory levels of consciousness. Not only that, it's not a one-way street. Because everybody is in a dynamic relationship with the dominant ideas in society, people are pulled this way that constantly. <That point, does not negate the point you are making. Yes indeed, there will always, always be people that hold contradictory positions at odds with our theory.
Is it greater, the contradiction, in the SWP than any other organisation on the Revolutionar (R) left? Probably. Do the CC set out to create that contradiction in the way Norman suggested? PMSL no! There is quite obvious logical and less Machiavellian explanation for this.
Partly, the election of a slate, for the CC is a reflection that the leadership don't trust the membership or the education level of the membership. Meaning there is probably a greater gulf in political understanding, between leadership and rank and file, in the SWP than probably any other organisation on the left.
:)
I've been listening to people's complaints about the SWP on here for 10 years. Because they tend to hyperbole, sociological, and Machiavellian explanations like Norman's, for someone like me, they are easy to dismiss. However, having read SWP comrades criticism of the party, I find their explanations much easier to understand. And they are not too far away from what people are saying on here, they just explain it in a more political language FMPOV, that is easier for me to comprehend. http://redioactive.blogspot.co.uk/2...ter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Redbedhead+(RedBedHead
Comrades are basically agreeing with you, that there is too big a gap between the CC and the membership, but more importantly between the CC and reality. Between the CC and the reality of the class struggle.
I believe the CC drew the wrong conclusions from events in Manchester around the war in Yugoslavia, regarding the way forward to working with all the left wing organisations, and the working class. This manifested in our move into the socialist Alliance, and a wrong tactic. This itself compounded an earlier mistake about the "upturn in class struggle". "1930s in slow motion".
In my opinion, Another important factor is people need to be clear about what they mean when they say SWP actions contradict their theory.
(R) Anybody who would like to see an end to capitalist mode of social organisation and a transition to a classless mode of social existence.
 
Only new thing in that mail re-hash is:

We have also learned of a third alleged rape case in London, which went before the disputes committee and resulted in the accused — a party member also in his 20s — being expelled from the SWP.

Presumably this was part of the the 9 cases we knew about already, but does - if true of course - open up again questions about the parties responsibilities to people outside the party as well as inside.
 
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