SWP expulsions and squabbles

[sihhi]

Has anyone mentioned Leeds SWSS have gone?

Yes, and this is now real:

IS Network - National Meeting on 13th April
We believe that there is now, more than ever, a clear necessity for the living, non-conformist spirit of the International Socialist tradition, which celebrated democracy, plurality and openness. The economic crisis has not only created the opportunity for socialist organisations to root themselves within the class and labour movement, it has made the self-organisation of working class socialists on this basis absolutely imperative. We believe this can only be done on the most democratic basis, with an organisation built from the bottom up.

For these reasons, we have decided to call a meeting to discuss the way forward. This meeting is designed to discuss openly the best way to build a socialist alternative in Britain today. The purpose of this meeting is not the creation of SWP Mark II. Instead, it is an attempt to regroup those that have been understandably disgusted by the direction that the SWP has been taken in by its leadership. We particularly invite all those who have resigned from the SWP over recent events to attend.

IS Network Meeting
Saturday 13th April
Central London

 

[SpineyNorman]

That seems a perfectly sensible demand (one which both SP and SWP would support) and doesn't suggest anyone - student or non-student - who is working in a strip club elsewhere is some kind of traitor.

J Ed is right. There were some rad fem types who do think like that on the march. I've spoken to a couple of them. Of course that doesn't mean the organisers of the march agree with them.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Where did you see that?

Facebook

Statement of Disaffiliation
In response to the recent crisis engulfing the SWP over its mishandling of rape allegations, Leeds University Socialist Workers Student Society would like to announce our disaffiliation from the organisation.
We feel this step is necessary because of the party’s inherent sexism and bureaucratised democratic structure, which has also historically subordinated the role of Socialist Workers Student Society. The treatment of dissident voices within the party and subsequent bullying and intimidation of young members has made our continued affiliation untenable.
We believe democracy and women’s liberation are the foundations of a truly revolutionary movement. As such, we have decided to reconstitute our group with these principles at our core, under the name Revolutionary Socialists (RevSoc).
We are committed to the fight against capitalism, oppression and imperialism and will work with all those in the movement who share these goals, in a non-sectarian manner.
As a group, want to work towards left unity on campus, building on our recent successes of working with other activists. We extend our invitation to all staff and students to contact us who share our dedication to creating a viable socialist alternative.
Solidarity,
Leeds University Revolutionary Socialists (RevSoc)
luurevsoc@yahoo.co.uk
Signed
Augusta
Dave
Dick
Eleanor
Hester
Kady
Martin
Matthew
Paris
Shelley
Simon
Wandia

 

[belboid]

It wasn't very coherent, originally the march was supposed to be against Spearmint Rhino (isn't it weird how they never target the brothels in Attercliffe?) but they changed it to being a march against any more stripclubs opening. Other than that I think it was supposed to be an exercise in feminist consciousness raising or something.

oh blimey.... I first came onto these boards to discuss the opening of Spearmint Rhino ten years ago. The SWP were really confused about what attitude to take then too...

 

[TremulousTetra]

It definitely is/was identity politics - you only had to listen to the justifications to know that. This is where some of the problems with their student membership comes from IMO (although BB is exaggerating it like the worst kind of hack it is true that SWSS is full of identity politics crap). Their politics in theory (against ID politics) just doesn't fit with their politics in practice. So for a long time it suited them for younger members not to understand their theoretical tradition. And now the CC are using this - something of their own creation - as a stick to beat people who don't like botched rape investigations with.

so did the cc ban students from reading the ISJ-identity politics

 

[belboid]

Also are you sure they were Radical Feminists and not just socialist feminists with a focus on women's issues who happened to be outside of the various left parties?

it was mostly ther Feminist Fightback lot, wasnt it? A right mixture, but with some decent socfems in it. Or they were till the AWL started digging their claws in...

 

[SpineyNorman]

so did the cc ban students from reading the ISJ-identity politics

It's pointless discussing anything with you isn't it? Where did I say the CC had banned anyone from reading anything? How's about trying, just for once, to respond to what is actually being said? You never know, you might actually like it.

 

[J Ed]

so did the cc ban students from reading the ISJ-identity politics

I can't tell you what reading the CC does or doesn't promote but I can tell you that I've heard bullshit about identity politics and privilege theory bandied about by SWSS members a decent amount.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I agree with you completely that it's a reasonable demand, but my friends who go along to feminist events in Sheffield tell me about some pretty fucking dodgy views being aired about sex workers by some.

There was some discussion around Sheffield Against Sexism about promoting unionising workers but it was shot down. I suspect that anti-sex worker sentiment is why.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I can't tell you what reading the CC does or doesn't promote but I can tell you that I've heard bullshit about identity politics and privilege theory bandied about by SWSS members a decent amount.

pmsl

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I can't tell you what reading the CC does or doesn't promote but I can tell you that I've heard bullshit about identity politics and privilege theory bandied about by SWSS members a decent amount.

I don't doubt it. Explains a lot about the present crisis.

That Leeds statement is hilarious. Oh the horror, subordinating the role of swss....

 

[J Ed]

Before you get too excited, I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the nasty stuff was being suggested by SWP members.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

oh blimey.... I first came onto these boards to discuss the opening of Spearmint Rhino ten years ago. The SWP were really confused about what attitude to take then too...

Took a time to work it out true enough.

I'd love to live in a town that had marches against strip clubs even if the ideas were all over the shop. My workmates (men and women) don't consider the night out complete unless we go to Foxies :-(

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Took a time to work it out true enough.

I'd love to live in a rown that had marches against strip clubs even if the ideas were all over the shop. My workmates (men and women) don't consider the night out complete unless we go to Foxies :-(

And do you go with them?

 

[TremulousTetra]

It's pointless discussing anything with you isn't it? Where did I say the CC had banned anyone from reading anything? How's about trying, just for once, to respond to what is actually being said? You never know, you might actually like it.

never said he did, just wanted you to double underlined to frog woman the REAL SWP theoretical position.

It definitely is/was identity politics - you only had to listen to the justifications to know that. This is where some of the problems with their student membership comes from IMO (although BB is exaggerating it like the worst kind of hack it is true that SWSS is full of identity politics crap).

how do you possibly take on this

Their politics in theory (against ID politics) just doesn't fit with their politics in practice. So for a long time it suited them for younger members not to understand their theoretical tradition. And now the CC are using this - something of their own creation - as a stick to beat people who don't like botched rape investigations with.

how do I convince you, it is possible that your impression of events, is maybe different to somebody else's impression of events? You have no hard evidence for that. You have no statements from the SWP stating that. That is just your impression, you state as if hard fact.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

And do you go with them?

Don't be a silly billy.

 

[SpineyNorman]

never said he did, just wanted you to double underlined to frog woman the REAL SWP theoretical position.how do you possibly take on this
how do I convince you, it is possible that your impression of events, is maybe different to somebody else's impression of events? You have no hard evidence for that. You have no statements from the SWP stating that. That is just your impression, you state as if hard fact.

It is hard fact. I don't need statements - statements only give you the SWP in theory, and I've been clear from the start that they're against ID politics in theory. We can't judge their actions by what they say can we? So statements are irrelevant. They won't tell you anything. Instead, to judge the SWP in practice, we must look at what they do in practice. I therefore present to you as evidence: Respect and UAF.

 

[sihhi]

It wasn't very coherent, originally the march was supposed to be against Spearmint Rhino (isn't it weird how they never target the brothels in Attercliffe?) but they changed it to being a march against any more stripclubs opening. Other than that I think it was supposed to be an exercise in feminist consciousness raising or something.

But Spearmint Rhino was the strip club expanding to open yet another branch - and the council had given the go ahead, hence attacking them might have sharpened the protest - but then you run the danger of "evil socialists taking away people's existing jobs" (something magically remembered by "centrists" when it comes to the global arms, tobacco and sex industry )

 

[TremulousTetra]

Before you get too excited, I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the nasty stuff was being suggested by SWP members.

ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[J Ed]

But Spearmint Rhino was the strip club expanding to open yet another branch - and the council had given the go ahead, hence attacking them might have sharpened the protest - but then you run the danger of "evil socialists taking away people's existing jobs" (something magically remembered by "centrists" when it comes to the global arms, tobacco and sex industry )

Surely most centrists don't really give a shit about sex workers?

I don't really know what to think of strip clubs, they seem like horrible inherently exploitative places but I feel uncomfortable stigmatising people and telling them where they can and can't work. Surely it would be better to focus on unionising sex workers rather than shutting down strip clubs?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Surely most centrists don't really give a shit about sex workers?

Sure, but many people, mostly men, care a great deal about the continued existence of the sex industry and will use sex workers as a weapon in argument.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

(emphasis mine)

I've long suspected that you've been posting from a parallel universe, this just confirms it. It's obviously a completely inverted universe where the SWP doesn't have an appallingly undemocratic culture and malleable political principles AND Dermot Connolly actually has social skills.

I shall now call it bizzaro-world.

You just made mrs bb spit her dinner out. She's on the phone now telling her brother I live in bizzaro-world. I knew we should have gone to the pub.

In fairness I liked him partly cause unlike all the other Millies he actually deigned to talk to us like we were human beings.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

In fairness I liked him partly cause unlike all the other Millies he actually deigned to talk to us like we were human beings.

If so, you were the only ones! Dermot has many attributes. Charm, however, is not numbered amongst them.

 

[TremulousTetra]

It is hard fact. I give you as evidence: Respect and UAF.

so what you're saying is, I cannot genuinely hold different point of view to you about respect and the UAF? because I do.

in my opinion the socialist workers party were wrong in the socialist Alliance and respect, for being too tolerant and conciliatory [ I actually believe the socialist parties position in the socialist Alliance was probably more realistic.]. Which is quite ironic as were also being charged with

Some wise words from Peter Tatchell in How Masculinity Undermines Left Politics

http://www.petertatchell.net/masculinity/masculinisation.htm

It is also evident in the way much of the self-proclaimed vanguardist Left makes a particular virtue of its commitment to tough policies, no compromises, confrontation tactics and the glorification of the armed struggle. To them, being tolerant or conciliatory is an inherent sign of weakness and can never be countenanced. Those who deviate from the correct line - however slightly or sincerely are ferociously denounced as traitors and sell-outs.
Even worse, some on the revolutionary Left extol this masculinisation of socialism as a litmus test to distinguish themselves as true socialists from others whom they dismiss as mere liberals and reformists. For these people, toughness has been elevated into a tenet of socialist commitment.

see what I mean? Damned if you do damned if you don't.
PS. You need to see my post earlier on this issue.
PPS. I'm sorry Norman, but I am equally vexed by yours and frog woman is contributions.
PPPS. THIS IS FROM SOMEONE who after reading what SWP comrades have said on this topic, has come to the mind that the leaving factions arguments, have a great deal of merit.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Surely it would be better to focus on unionising sex workers rather than shutting down strip clubs?

Or both. Time for a Lucas Aerospace of the sex industry?

 

[sihhi]

I don't really know what to think of strip clubs, they seem like horrible inherently exploitative places but I feel uncomfortable stigmatising people and telling them where they can and can't work. Surely it would be better to focus on unionising sex workers rather than shutting down strip clubs?

I get your point - I'm not blaming the workers, but the owners, partners, shareholders, architects and visitors do bear responsibility.

As it was I think the Spearmint Rhino in Sheffield got given the go ahead but the one West Street was rejected (though that might have been more to do with traffic and pedestrian crowding/through-flow)

 

[SpineyNorman]

so what you're saying is, I cannot genuinely hold different point of view to you about respect and the UAF? because I do.

in my opinion the socialist workers party were wrong in the socialist Alliance and respect, for being too tolerant and conciliatory. Which is quite ironic as were also being charged with
see what I mean? Damned if you do damned if you don't.
PS. You need to see my post earlier on this issue.
PPS. I'm sorry Norman, but I am equally vexed by yours and frog woman is contributions.
PPPS. THIS IS FROM SOMEONE who after reading what SWP comrades have said on this topic, has come to the mind that the leaving factions arguments, have a great deal of merit.

Please stop it, I get a little bit stupider every time I read one of your posts.

 

[J Ed]

Sure, but many people, mostly men, care a great deal about the continued existence of the sex industry and will use sex workers as a weapon in argument.

Fair point, I have a friend who worked as a stripper and a lot of the people who go to strip clubs really do seem like the scum of the earth. I don't know if that's a good enough of a point on its own though, I mean there are a lot of not very nice drug addicts who would favour a more sensible drug policy for selfish reasons but I'm not going to oppose that because of who supports it.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Please stop it, I get a little bit stupider every time I read one of your posts.

sorry, you're right. Your interpretation of events, is the only one possible.

 

[sihhi]

Or both. Time for a Lucas Aerospace of the sex industry?

A Lucas Plan would be ideal, but I can't be vehemently against anyone who justs want to see the places shut down, the poles used as anything else - bannisters, gates, abstract art - and those sites being given back to the community male and female - young and old alike.