SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Nigel Irritable]

Didn't the party leaderships always dominate the SWSS group leaderships?

Yes, but you are missing a key distinction in SWP court politics. The elements of the "party leadership" who had been in charge of SWSS were now out of favour dissidents. Whenever you see SWP loyalist arguments at any point seeming to put the boot into decisions by the CC, that is almost always a sign that some particular CC member or members are out of favour and the hacks are queueing up to demonstrate their loyalty by shivving them.

 

[belboid]

my impression of the SWP was of supporting the worst kind of apolitical identity politics

really??!!

 

[frogwoman]

really??!!

yep. the respect debacle etc ...

 

[bolshiebhoy]

for fuck's sake. it's ironic when my impression of the SWP was of supporting the worst kind of apolitical identity politics and "anti-imperialism" and so on, now this rape case and its mishandling is justified with a load of bollocks about feminists and autonomists. the party doesn't seem to have an real politics and just seems to exist for the purposes of perpetuating itself.

With respect that says more about your total lack of a clue about the politics of the swp. Why would anyone put anti-imperialism in quotes. Ah yes of course an SPer might well do that.

The politics of the swp is quite straightforward. On the side of those fighting imperialism but against their nationalism. On the side of those fighting sexism but against their feminism.

 

[J Ed]

Do you know anything about this J Ed:




Didn't the party leaderships always dominate the SWSS group leaderships?

No idea really, in Sheffield the SWSS organised a 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event alongside mostly university based Radical Feminists in early 2012 but I don't think that the leadership had any real problem with it at the time, they just used it as a stick to beat the students with because they didn't fall into line over Martin Smith.

I personally think that the 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event was pretty awful because it involved mostly middle-class students (some with some very dodgy views about sex workers) protesting against strip clubs without making any effort whatsoever to talk to the women who worked in them. If anyone needs to be unionised then it's the women who work in strip clubs, but when some of the people that you are marching alongside think that sex workers are traitors to their gender then that probably won't be part of your overall strategy. Again, while this event was problematic I don't recall the main SWP having any problem with it at the time.

 

[SpineyNorman]

No it's not

I don't know how many FB discussions you've seen between them all but the dominant tone of the platformists when talking about the feminist debates is "stop disagreeing and engage". That bloody word is omnifuckingpresent. And of course there is the RS quote I have used about 10 times on this thread about the "overly dogmmatic 80's arguments". It's not just the content of the older women's arguments he was objecting to. It's their style. Namely their tendency to say something clearly and not waffle around the edges like what he does and so many of the student feminists do.

To be fair to bb some of the identity politics types on university campuses actually do go off like this. I see it as a kind of left version of the right wingers who claim you're denying their right to free speech when you point out they're talking utter bollocks. It's tended to be the non-aligned anarcho-liberal ones rather than SWP I've noticed doing it though so it could just be another smear.

 

[belboid]

yep. the respect debacle etc ...

aah, okay, I think of that as having shit identity politics, rather apolitical IP

 

[J Ed]

In fact, I remember now that Maxine Bowler was at the Sheffield Against Sexism event, so the non-SWSS SWP actually participated in the event...

 

[frogwoman]

Fair enough - but that's the overwhelming impression of them I've always got from things like UAF, Respect, etc.

 

[sihhi]

Yes, but you are missing a key distinction in SWP court politics. The elements of the "party leadership" who had been in charge of SWSS were now out of favour dissidents. Whenever you see SWP loyalist arguments at any point seeming to put the boot into decisions by the CC, that is almost always a sign that some particular CC member or members are out of favour and the hacks are queueing up to demonstrate their loyalty by shivving them.

So does this all boil down to "it was Bergfeld's fault"?

Given that the SWP leadership think the students are entering "the swamp" so-called, the structures aren't a problem and 11 out of 11 loyalists are on the Committee to investigate aspects of disputes processes. The only explanation is Bergfeld leading the students wrong because he either fell from the moon and hid himself as a loyal SWP figure, or was somehow infected by a virus which however much the SWP CC tried they couldn't innoculate against.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

"Moreover, there was a real sense of debacle around how some of the Democratic Centralism Faction had intervened in the conference. One of their members spoke both for and against his own motion. Another spoke against expulsions by denouncing those who had been expelled." These things might well be true but yet again the Seymour lack of political acumen shines through. Why the fuck would you insult the people you're hoping to win over to the ISN? He really is a liability to any faction he joins.

 

[SpineyNorman]

No idea really, in Sheffield the SWSS organised a 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event alongside mostly university based Radical Feminists in early 2012 but I don't think that the leadership had any real problem with it at the time, they just used it as a stick to beat the students with because they didn't fall into line over Martin Smith.

I personally think that the 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event was pretty awful because it involved mostly middle-class students (some with some very dodgy views about sex workers) protesting against strip clubs without making any effort whatsoever to talk to the women who worked in them. If anyone needs to be unionised then it's the women who work in strip clubs, but when some of the people that you are marching alongside think that sex workers are traitors to their gender then that probably won't be part of your overall strategy. Again, while this event was problematic I don't recall the main SWP having any problem with it at the time.

They definitely didn't have a problem with it at the time - some of the people who signed the CC statement were on that march. I didn't really understand what it was all about and still don't.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I know this one! It was a made up Militant member back in Bolshiebhoy's glory days. Do I get a prize?

Nope as he was very real. Dermot Connolly, I'm sure you remember him NI. Most likeable and politically worked out member of yours I ever met.

 

[SpineyNorman]

In fact, I remember now that Maxine Bowler was at the Sheffield Against Sexism event, so the non-SWSS SWP actually participated in the event...

She wasn't the only one. At least one other of the ones who signed the CC statement was there.

 

[J Ed]

They definitely didn't have a problem with it at the time - some of the people who signed the CC statement were on that march. I didn't really understand what it was all about and still don't.

It wasn't very coherent, originally the march was supposed to be against Spearmint Rhino (isn't it weird how they never target the brothels in Attercliffe?) but they changed it to being a march against any more stripclubs opening. Other than that I think it was supposed to be an exercise in feminist consciousness raising or something.

 

[TremulousTetra]

for fuck's sake. it's ironic when my impression of the SWP was of supporting the worst kind of apolitical identity politics and "anti-imperialism" and so on, now this rape case and its mishandling is justified with a load of bollocks about feminists and autonomists. the party doesn't seem to have an real politics and just seems to exist for the purposes of perpetuating itself.

what the swp really said. The politics of identity cannot point the way towards building the kind of movement which can actually end oppression.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So does this all boil down to "it was Bergfeld's fault"?

Yes.

Bergfeld and I believe Dee also had responsibilities in the student department. Both dissidents and therefore perfect patsies. The whole line of argument provides everything the SWP leadership faction needs: an explanation for the youth revolt, an ability to cast things in terms of the oppositionists failure to absorb "our tradition", and perfect scapegoats.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

To be fair to bb some of the identity politics types on university campuses actually do go off like this. I see it as a kind of left version of the right wingers who claim you're denying their right to free speech when you point out they're talking utter bollocks. It's tended to be the non-aligned anarcho-liberal ones rather than SWP I've noticed doing it though so it could just be another smear.

Oh spiney you give with one hand but take with the other.

 

[sihhi]

No idea really, in Sheffield the SWSS organised a 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event alongside mostly university based Radical Feminists in early 2012 but I don't think that the leadership had any real problem with it at the time, they just used it as a stick to beat the students with because they didn't fall into line over Martin Smith.

I personally think that the 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event was pretty awful because it involved mostly middle-class students (some with some very dodgy views about sex workers) protesting against strip clubs without making any effort whatsoever to talk to the women who worked in them. If anyone needs to be unionised then it's the women who work in strip clubs, but when some of the people that you are marching alongside think that sex workers are traitors to their gender then that probably won't be part of your overall strategy. Again, while this event was problematic I don't recall the main SWP having any problem with it at the time.

I think a tougher line (not sure how) should be inflicted against males who sustain strip clubs, so the intentions of this protest seem worthwhile. The Socialist Party report doesn't mention any protest against strip clubs.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Fair enough - but that's the overwhelming impression of them I've always got from things like UAF, Respect, etc.

It definitely is/was identity politics - you only had to listen to the justifications to know that. This is where some of the problems with their student membership comes from IMO (although BB is exaggerating it like the worst kind of hack it is true that SWSS is full of identity politics crap). Their politics in theory (against ID politics) just doesn't fit with their politics in practice. So for a long time it suited them for younger members not to understand their theoretical tradition. And now the CC are using this - something of their own creation - as a stick to beat people who don't like botched rape investigations with.

 

[J Ed]

I think a tougher line (not sure how) should be inflicted against males who sustain strip clubs, so the intentions of this protest seem worthwhile. The Socialist Party report doesn't mention any protest against strip clubs.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/04/495515.html

"Sheffield Against Sexism wants to:
• Fight sexism in Sheffield
• Campaign against more strip clubs opening in the city
• Save our local women’s services"

 

[sihhi]

No idea really, in Sheffield the SWSS organised a 'Sheffield Against Sexism' event alongside mostly university based Radical Feminists in early 2012 but I don't think that the leadership had any real problem with it at the time, they just used it as a stick to beat the students with because they didn't fall into line over Martin Smith.

Also are you sure they were Radical Feminists and not just socialist feminists with a focus on women's issues who happened to be outside of the various left parties?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Has anyone mentioned Leeds SWSS have gone?

 

[SpineyNorman]

what the swp really said. The politics of identity cannot point the way towards building the kind of movement which can actually end oppression.

We're talking about what they do rather than what they say though. You get that the two things aren't necessarily the same, right?

Or do you believe that workfare is all about helping people into work? That the Lib Dems are progressive? That the EDL just want to stop terrorism? Or do you only leave your critical faculties at the door when it comes to the SWP?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

"Moreover, there was a real sense of debacle around how some of the Democratic Centralism Faction had intervened in the conference. One of their members spoke both for and against his own motion. Another spoke against expulsions by denouncing those who had been expelled." These things might well be true but yet again the Seymour lack of political acumen shines through. Why the fuck would you insult the people you're hoping to win over to the ISN? He really is a liability to any faction he joins.

He's not trying to win over anyone who still thinks that the half-hearted "opposition" of the original DCF was sufficient. I doubt if there are many people who take that kind of line any more anyway.

 

[J Ed]

Also are you sure they were Radical Feminists and not just socialist feminists with a focus on women's issues who happened to be outside of the various left parties?

They certainly weren't all radfems, just there is a pretty active and reasonably large contingent of them in Sheffield.

 

[sihhi]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/04/495515.html
• Campaign against more strip clubs opening in the city

That seems a perfectly sensible demand (one which both SP and SWP would support) and doesn't suggest anyone - student or non-student - who is working in a strip club elsewhere is some kind of traitor.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Has anyone mentioned Leeds SWSS have gone?

Where did you see that?

 

[leyton96]

Nope as he was very real. Dermot Connolly, I'm sure you remember him NI. Most likeable and politically worked out member of yours I ever met.

(emphasis mine)

I've long suspected that you've been posting from a parallel universe, this just confirms it. It's obviously a completely inverted universe where the SWP doesn't have an appallingly undemocratic culture and malleable political principles AND Dermot Connolly actually has social skills.

I shall now call it bizzaro-world.

 

[J Ed]

That seems a perfectly sensible demand (one which both SP and SWP would support) and doesn't suggest anyone - student or non-student - who is working in a strip club elsewhere is some kind of traitor.

I agree with you completely that it's a reasonable demand, but my friends who go along to feminist events in Sheffield tell me about some pretty fucking dodgy views being aired about sex workers by some.

There was some discussion around Sheffield Against Sexism about promoting unionising workers but it was shot down. I suspect that anti-sex worker sentiment is why.