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SWP expulsions and squabbles

I've been listening to people's complaints about the SWP on here for 10 years. .
No you haven't listened at all, you simply knee jerk defend the party whatever the circumstances.
For most of the past three months you have not even acknowledged that this crisis was caused by an allegation of serious sexual assault, and instead trolled " have they split yet? Inanities.
 
Only new thing in that mail re-hash is:



Presumably this was part of the the 9 cases we knew about already, but does - if true of course - open up the questions about the parties responsibilities to people outside the party as well as inside.
I am still wondering whether the case I heard about in the early 1990s will come out.
 
No you haven't listened at all, you simply knee jerk defend the party whatever the circumstances.
For most of the past three months you have not even acknowledged that this crisis was caused by an allegation of serious sexual assault, and instead trolled " have they split yet? Inanities.

Well said, barney.
 
Only new thing in that mail re-hash is:



Presumably this was part of the the 9 cases we knew about already, but does - if true of course - open up again questions about the parties responsibilities to people outside the party as well as inside.
And we've already talked about one such case earlier in this thread. Given that the woman in that case didn't want to go to the police either I'm not sure what the party could reasonably be expected to have done differently to expelling the guy.
 
How would you know?
After all, you reckon you haven't been a Swappie for years, that you have little contact with them, and that you don't keep up with the latest dogma. :)
:)

I am talking about historic examples. ie the way people interpret the SWP's actions in the socialist Alliance. it is just so easy for me to dismiss the interpretation that we just wanted to control, because 1. It wasn't worth controlling. 2. The real reason is there in black-and-white in their publications. the erroneous belief the working class were just waiting for a reformist 'party', that would reflect their level of consciousness, which new Labour had abandoned. If you look at the Constitution structure et cetera that we engineered, it wasn't there to give us control, it was there to bend over backwards to the 'reformist' working class. if anything it was to give them control of a 'working class' organisation, in which revolutionaries would have a foothold.


(You know like Trotsky's argument about the little cog, turning the big cog? Socialist Alliance, respect, UAF, are all contradictory to revolutionary theory, but the contradiction is explainable as revolutionary socialist from this POV.)
 
:)

I am talking about historic examples. ie the way people interpret the SWP's actions in the socialist Alliance. it is just so easy for me to dismiss the interpretation that we just wanted to control, because 1. It wasn't worth controlling. 2. The real reason is there in black-and-white in their publications. the erroneous belief the working class were just waiting for a reformist 'party', that would reflect their level of consciousness, which new Labour had abandoned. If you look at the Constitution structure et cetera that we engineered, it wasn't there to give us control, it was there to bend over backwards to the 'reformist' working class. if anything it was to give them control of a 'working class' organisation, in which revolutionaries would have a foothold.


(You know like Trotsky's argument about the little cog, turning the big cog? Socialist Alliance, respect, UAF, are all contradictory to revolutionary theory, but the contradiction is explainable as revolutionary socialist from this POV.)

I suspect you actually believe that's what you're doing too. That's how far gone you are.
 

A number of years ago, when I was on the IS Steering Committee, there was a debate in the SWP about who would appoint party full-timers. The old way had been for them to be democratically appointed from the district in which they were to work. But sometime in the 1990s (at least this was when I became aware of it) an argument was raised that the full-timers ought to be appointed by the party centre because, otherwise, the full-timers would feel beholden to the district and not the national party. This, it was argued would hinder the implementation of national perspectives and thus be anti-democratic.
This is interesting.

Things are moving fast inside the SWP with last night’s announcement of the mass resignation of over 70 members, probably to be joined by numerous others who resigned individually. As is probably apparent from my analysis, I am sympathetic to the reasons why they have done so. The real danger is that they have played into the plan of the CC – which was, I believe, to make the environment so hostile that hardcore opposition would leave, weakening any wavering elements inside the party to continue the struggle. My fear is that this will weaken the struggle against the party bureaucracy and lead to the loss of what, in my view, was the most profound reclamation of the real Marxist tradition since the profound defeat of the Russian Revolution by Stalinism almost 90 years ago.
The SWP being the best thing to come out of Marxism in the last 90 years! It's hard to know where to begin...
 
And we've already talked about one such case earlier in this thread. Given that the woman in that case didn't want to go to the police either I'm not sure what the party could reasonably be expected to have done differently to expelling the guy.
Which case? And why are you sure that the woman didn't want to go to the police in this case? I wasn't talking about the police anyway - i was talking about circulating info about the person expelled for rape - surely that a sort of basic responsibility here in order to allow others (inside and out of the party) to prepare and to potentially defend themselves? Or was that too high a price to pay for the trouble it would bring to the parties door?
 
Re: Socialist Alliance, the SWP were more about soaking up any new forces in this arena, rather than controlling it explicitly. If the SP had had stayed in there, the SWP would have been the biggest faction, but couldn't have got everything their own way.
 
This is interesting.


The SWP being the best thing to come out of Marxism in the last 90 years! It's hard to know where to begin...
the first quote is just bollocks tho - organisers were never 'democratically appointed,' and the system didnt change in the nineties/
 

Yeh, a fascinating review. The review by Paul LeBlanc mentioned by ibilly99 in post 9126 is also interesting, but does make the point about Lars' book that ;

"One limitation of the book is that is stops in 1905. A related, and quite serious, limitation is that it doesn't really deal with the question of why a revolutionary like Lenin and an organization such as the Bolshevik party, so committed to democracy, should carry out a revolution which really did result in a terrible dictatorship -- and which under Stalin (who claimed to be doing it all "under the banner of Lenin") certainly became one of the worst dictatorships in the history of the world".

My "problem with Lenin" isn't actually that I think he was a sinister authoritarian all along. So I can probably buy into most of the , up to 1905, stuff by Lars vis a vis "what is to be Done, etc" . My problem with Lenin is that he took a disastrous world historically significant gamble in October 1917, supposedly (some argue) AFTER he had finally twigged (because of the devastating betrayal of German Social Democracy, particularly its Marxist luminaries like Kautsky, in supporting their ruling class and voting for war in 1914) that German Social Democracy wasn't revolutionery after all, and , with Trotsky, persuaded the Bolshevik Party to carry out what was essentially an adventurist politico/military coup . This carried the aims of the revolution waaaaay beyond the orthodox Marxist (and of course Menshevik) "Bourgeois Democratic" limits that the economic/social backwardness of Russia presupposed in orthodox Marxist Theory. He did this, partly because the total chaos in the Russian Empire simply provided an opportunity to do so, but ostensively because it could be argued to be a premature, but useful contributory part of the Europe-wide socialist revolution then very much on the cards. However if Lenin had already "seen through" the non-revolutionery posturing of German Social Democracy by 1917 (as others argue) , how could he justify this huge break with Marxist orthodoxy in seizing power for a tiny working class in a backward peasant-filled country , if there was no realistic prospect of the German working class soon coming to the rescue ? If Lenin in fact still had big illusions in German Social Democracy's ability to deliver a socialist revolution in 1917, then actually his understanding of German Social Democracy was crap - but at least his huge revolutionery gamble was more justifiable . Though with the benefit of nearly 100 years of 20/20 hindsight it surely is now clear that the gamble not only failed, but may have , because of the rise of Stalinism as a result of the unsustainability of socialist working class democracy in an isolated Soviet Union, condemned Humanity forever to a rejection of Socialism.

By either interpretation of Lenin's understanding of the potential of German Social Democracy by 1917, the critical point, I think, is that Lenin, far from being the font of all political/tactical wisdom, stands condemned as either an incompetent and naive political analyst, or as an extraordinary political gambler, or both . He certainly doesn't come across as the all-seeing sage, finger on the pulse of history, whilst all around him twist and turn in confusion. The continuing obsession with Lenin and "Leninism" today is rooted , I think, in the still powerful weight of the Stalinist message , then also adopted by Trotskyism in all essentials, that Lenin's amazing non-orthodox-Marxist power grab gamble "PAID OFF", and created a Socialist State ( even if "deformed") in the overthrown Czarist Empire. End of argument... IT WORKED, QED. Of course it didn't - it created a very short-lived , unstable, "workers and peasants " state, totally dominated by the Communist Party bureaucracy - very quickly overthrown by a hitherto unthought of new oppressive social form - "Stalinism". The gamble completely FAILED. In hindsight the much sneered at Menshevik warning that to hold power in an isolated backward Russia a socialist party would have eventually to rule by "Jacobin Terror" , has proved to be only too true. I'm not suggesting this was inevitable - the German , and other European,socialist revolutionery wave of 1918 to the mid 20's could just possibly have succeeded - but given what we now know about the treachery of Social Democracy , unlikely.

I think we all really need to just stop interpreting and reinterpreting Lenin ad infinitum. Stop identifying ourselves as "Leninists" or "non-Leninists". There has now been a full bourgeois capitalist restoration in the USSR - soon to follow in China. Let the man and his mouldering corpse be buried. He was a flawed but sincere revolutionery. His (and Trotsky's) sincere, understandable, but with 100 years of hindsight, mistaken, 1917 political gamble failed, with huge disastrous consequences for world history. We need to use the revolutionery socialist tradition, the disastrous mistakes, and the writings of past revolutioneries in a much more open-minded, rather than "scriptural reverential" way, move on, and try to use the brains in our heads to chart the way forward now, on the basis of OUR understanding of the problems and challenges ahead.
 
For, according to a former veteran party member of 18 years standing, the SWP’s internal court — otherwise known as the disputes committee — has been convened on no fewer than nine separate occasions to investigate allegations of rape against nine different men in the party.

Are the names of the nine known? Are they still in the party?
 
Could have been different in the seventies, but its been the same since at least '84

In Manchester (from my 1971 onwards experience) organisers were always appointed by the Centre. However, given the small size and pool of potential organisers then, the local bod appointed could be "interesting". In 1971 the Manchester Organiser, Glynn Carver was a strange "Trotsky/Maoist"hybrid !
 
Re: Socialist Alliance, the SWP were more about soaking up any new forces in this arena, rather than controlling it explicitly. If the SP had had stayed in there, the SWP would have been the biggest faction, but couldn't have got everything their own way.
nah, they demanded simple majority votes on everything - basically "our way or the highway"
 
This figure of 9 cases has cropped up a few times, but I have lost track of where it ordinates from. Also it does not say very much by itself, 9 cases over how long a time period? Has than be stated anywhere?
 
In Manchester (from my 1971 onwards experience) organisers were always appointed by the Centre. However, given the small size and pool of potential organisers then, the local bod appointed could be "interesting". In 1971 the Manchester Organiser, Glynn Carver was a strange "Trotsky/Maoist"hybrid !
I was never sure that electing organisers was a good idea anyway. And this impression that to be one you have to be ultra loyal is not true either. Many are but I have come across a significant number who aren't. Paris T of course was one while having massive disagreements with the SWP leadership. E en with the limited gossip I here during the current crises I know of 2 who were faction supporters, although at least one of the was sacked straight after conference.
 
No you haven't listened at all, you simply knee jerk defend the party whatever the circumstances.

For most of the past three months you have not even acknowledged that this crisis was caused by an allegation of serious sexual assault, and instead trolled " have they split yet? Inanities.
absolutely true that I have not listened to, addressed the issue of the rape allegations until the last week. I thought I would let more facts come out before jumping to conclusions. If you look through the thread you will see I have pointed out some ambiguities about the allegation of cover-up.

However, Even though it is difficult to work out what is the truth, everybody including members of the CC seem to have agreed things should have been handled better.

If you want a really really honest opinion, really honestly I don't know. I don't know the truth about the rape allegation. I don't know what questions should have been asked. I don't know at all how this should have been handled. If you were only interested in the interests of the party, it would have been better if the woman had gone straight to the police.

However, if you actually read my post, you would see that I have moved significantly on my position of support for the SWP as they are now. THAT was the topic of that post. The reference to the past 10 years, was in reference to discussions before this incident.

If you want me to discuss the rape allegations, I will do. But I will have to ask you for information, I don't have.

ie would comrades assess it as fair, if the SWP had refused to handle the rape allegation, and told the comrade to go to the police?
 
I think we all really need to just stop interpreting and reinterpreting Lenin ad infinitum. Stop identifying ourselves as "Leninists" or "non-Leninists". There has now been a full bourgeois capitalist restoration in the USSR - soon to follow in China. Let the man and his mouldering corpse be buried. He was a flawed but sincere revolutionery. His (and Trotsky's) sincere, understandable, but with 100 years of hindsight, mistaken, 1917 political gamble failed, with huge disastrous consequences for world history. We need to use the revolutionery socialist tradition, the disastrous mistakes, and the writings of past revolutioneries in a much more open-minded, rather than "scriptural reverential" way, move on, and try to use the brains in our heads to chart the way forward now, on the basis of OUR understanding of the problems and challenges ahead.
couldn't agree more.
 
and, given the author, it is probable that it refers to nine in the lifetime of the SWP
Is it? Seems to me that this were only the ones that she was recently informed about this 9 by someone maybe from the DC, but certainly someone in some authority - and i see no reason at all to believe that this could not mean 9 that this (DC) member knows about, so it could be read as 9 at least.
 
And we've already talked about one such case earlier in this thread. Given that the woman in that case didn't want to go to the police either I'm not sure what the party could reasonably be expected to have done differently to expelling the guy.
it would be interesting for somebody to highlight how this should have been dealt with. Whether it should have been refused to be handled by the party? If they do handle it, how? What questions should have been asked?

These questions are not about defending the party, but learning what is the right way to deal with the situation.
 
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