SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

According to people on twitter, Queen Mary SWSS resigned en masse.

according to people on twitter there was a bloody great riot on holloway road the other year. you'll want independent confirmation of that "mass" resignation before you go further touting it round the internet.

 

[SLK]

according to people on twitter there was a bloody great riot on holloway road the other year. you'll want independent confirmation of that "mass" resignation before you go further touting it round the internet.

Hasn't it already been touted round the internet if it's on twitter?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Buy they've already accepted almost all student members will be gone.

I agree that the SWP CC have in effect conceded that most of the students will be lost. It's still worth tracking what they manage to hold on to though, and also how much seems to be going over to the ISN as opposed to just disappearing.

 

[audiotech]

- barring other lefty papers.

Other lefty papers, or not, I will not accept from anyone what I can read and what I cannot and that nonsense played a part in my leaving the SWP when I did.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Other lefty papers, or not, I will not accept from anyone what I can read and what I cannot and that nonsense played a part in my leaving the SWP when I did.

What, the SWP tried to tell you not to read stuff?

 

[audiotech]

What, the SWP tried to tell you not to read stuff?

They frowned upon you buying other left-wing papers, so one gathers reading them too and a local hack (in academia and a professor now ironically) pulled me up for discussing a Marxism Today article with another party member. I immediately referenced Orwell and thought sod that. In hindsight, the rot had begun to set in at that time.

 

[treelover]

They frowned upon you buying other left-wing papers, so one gathers reading them too and a local hack (in academia and a professor now ironically) pulled me up for discussing a Marxism Today article with another party member. I immediately referenced Orwell and thought sod that. In hindsight, the rot had begun to set in at that time.

Sickening, words fail, now he is an academic?

 

[audiotech]

She is, was then.

 

[IC3D]

Sorry if repost

Donnacha DeLong talks to Laurie Penny and Zoe Stavri about the recent revelations about how organisations - from the Lib Dems and the police to the SWP and RMT - have dealt with allegations of rape and sexual assault. Is gender equality possible in an unequal organisation; or, to put it another way, is hierarchy the enemy of women's rights?

https://soundcloud.com/resonance-fm/21-00-00-the-circled-a-6

fill your boots

 

[Nigel Irritable]

http://sovietgoonboy.wordpress.com/...mocracy-in-the-international-socialists-1975/

Molyneux in happier times.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

http://sovietgoonboy.wordpress.com/...mocracy-in-the-international-socialists-1975/

Molyneux in happier times.

So the regime and arbitrary or self serving leadership behaviour was something people always had an issue with. Which goes to show that the latest crises aren't necessarily about a lack of democracy. People may frame their departure in those terms (be funny if they didn't ) but to explain these splits you have to look at other causes too.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

so, you'll read the cc members review, and agree with it, but you won't read the actual book?

it's like alice in fucking wonderland.

Fair point but once I saw the link in Belboids post I had to click on it out of curiosity. Five years ago I wasn't reading anything by the SWP or it's malcontents so this all passed me by.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

What, the SWP tried to tell you not to read stuff?

Not sure I see the problem. A certain IS prof in Dublin used to tell me off for reading too much classical Marxism and not enough contemporary stuff from all traditions. I'm glad he did now. He also encouraged me to have friends outside the party which I didn't back then. If I'd listened to him I might have stayed in the organisation a lot longer. Is it really that different to any trusted academic influencing your choice of reading as an undergrad?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Not sure I see the problem. [with the SWP telling members not to read stuff] A certain IS prof in Dublin used to tell me off for reading too much classical Marxism and not enough contemporary stuff from all traditions. I'm glad he did now. He also encouraged me to have friends outside the party which I didn't back then. If I'd listened to him I might have stayed in the organisation a lot longer. Is it really that different to any trusted academic influencing your choice of reading as an undergrad?

Really? Wow!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[frogwoman]

why don't you think it's a problem? the writings of tony cliff aren't the bible!

 

[electric.avenue]

Party comrades in the 80s used to wipe the floor with everyone else from all the other marxist groups whenever there were discussions. I remember one organisation called 'Proletarian' turning up at Marxism in the late 1980s and they were just chewed up and spat out theoretically by my mates, who were just ordinary SWP members, but their theoretical range and knowledge was awesome. No disrespect to Militant/SP people, but it was the same with them too back in the day. They couldn't hold a candle to the rank and file SWP members in terms of theory (although respect where respect is due - Militant were always in the frontline at Wapping and at other hardcore events of the era. They had genuine roots and respect in the working class. They could genuinely relate to working class people.) This theoretical cutting edge lead to hubris in the SWP and developed a very suspect culture and attitude in the party in the longer run. Without the old guard to temper this crap, it all went Pete Tong by the 1990s. Before you knew it, a whole modus operandi, style of delivery, and outlook took over the party. It had to in a way, because it was a case of battening down the hatches and getting on with the grind. Then neo-liberalism literally ripped up and tore apart the traditional working class and the party didn't have a clue about how to cope with this. It still doesn't, so you get all this Third Worldism/Orientalist crap, which Seymour is going to take with him into whatever new organisation he and China brew up.

Interesting post, Sean - but what do you mean about orientalism ?

 

[killer b]

Party comrades in the 80s used to wipe the floor with everyone else from all the other marxist groups whenever there were discussions. I remember one organisation called 'Proletarian' turning up at Marxism in the late 1980s and they were just chewed up and spat out theoretically by my mates, who were just ordinary SWP members, but their theoretical range and knowledge was awesome.

 

[The39thStep]

Other lefty papers, or not, I will not accept from anyone what I can read and what I cannot and that nonsense played a part in my leaving the SWP when I did.

We never had any pressure not to read other lefty papers. In fact there was a regular speaker in London who used to do a talk called Trot around the Left going through their arguments.Can't see how you can argue with people unless you read their stuff anyway. its not that you recruit people with no ideas or political views or previous political history.

I was a member from the mid 70s to the early 90s and took very faithfully Cliff's slogan, which I think I heard right that 'Democratic centralism is the misorganised trust of the centre'. I had genuine pity for our full timers as to be frank our branches in West and North West London took the piss.

 

[andysays]

the writings of tony cliff aren't the bible!

Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion, principles or cause, and blasphemy, which is irreverence toward religion.
Heresy is usually used to discuss violations of religious or traditional laws or legal codes, although it is used by some political extremists to refer to their opponents

(thanks to wiki)

 

[belboid]

We never had any pressure not to read other lefty papers. In fact there was a regular speaker in London who used to do a talk called Trot around the Left going through their arguments.

I remember that session at Skeggy, tho it always more of a pisstake than a serious analysis of other views.

We were never explicitly told not to read other papers, but there was a distinct air of 'what are you bothering with that for?'

 

[Louis MacNeice]

My experience of Militant in the mid 1980s was one where reading other left publications and talking to members of other left groups was definitely discouraged...I didn't last that long.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[belboid]

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/13442/
I like this summary

why do you like it? Its complete shit.

‘You have a pervert in your ranks and therefore your whole institution must be perverted!’

Is the articles claim, but its a claim that - surprise, surprise - completely and utterly misses the point. It isn't about the SWP having one vile rapist as a member, its about the party at large failing to investigate claims properly, and covering up for their failures.

 

[sptme]

"Fleas on a dogs hind legs" was how other left wing groups were described to me by a long standing member and I was explicitly told "don't talk to them" (the reason? because they, the other groups, were sectarian). Or "don't read that" referring to other theories and philosophers because "its a waste of time".

If they had know me better they would have realised that telling me not do something would only make me more curious as to why it was taboo.

 

[Random]

"Fleas on a dogs hind legs" was how other left wing groups were described to me by a long standing member and I was explicitly told "don't talk to them" (the reason? because they, the other groups, were sectarian). Or "don't read that" referring to other theories and philosophers because "its a waste of time".

If they had know me better they would have realised that telling me not do something would only make me more curious as to why it was taboo.

Your tiny font size makes me hear your post in a crotchety crabby little voice

 

[sptme]

don't know whats up with the font size. is this better?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Callinicos responded by saying it was essentially about party discipline and I'm inclined to agree. A retreat to a rebellion of this nature would have set a terrible precedent and it's not like the opposition where just making noises about the rape, was it? Loyalty to MS may have also played a small part.

I'm talking about in the original disciplinary meeting. I'm suggesting, there wasn't a cover-up in the original disciplinary, they just honestly didn't believe the accusations. Is that possible? Is it possible, they weren't true?

PS. Must add, I am playing devil's advocate. Like everybody else, I don't want to know the truth. Summary people are adding 2+2 and coming go with 999, phone the police.

 

[TremulousTetra]

don't know whats up with the font size. is this better?

love your avatar

 

[redcogs]

When D Hallas stayed following some public meeting c 1988 he came out of the bathroom and declared "its years since I read the sectarian press, I quite enjoyed it". The trouble is I can't remember which organ may have been laying around in there - could it have been Weekly Worker or its precursor, it was full of densely organised type, and a bit gossipy? i believe i picked it up from some London demo or other.

Duncan didn't seem remotely concerned about the matter. But i always found him to be very unhackish and amiable. Probably my favourite 'top table' person.

Fuck knows what he would have made of all this disgusting shit.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Because in the 80s, there wasn't the pretence that it was all brilliant despite our experiences as members.

Actually, the early 90s isn't the period he's referring - it's the early 2000s I think (he says it might have started in the 1990s). I think the issue was that we should have carried on growing in the late 90s if the analysis of the period was correct, so rather than say "why aren't we growing" the paper was filled every week with how much we were. It was only after 3 years of growth (when I was at LSE) that I started to question why we were still claiming 10000 members - the same as at the start. Even when our branch wasn't getting significantly bigger, I remember being desperate to work out how Glasgow, West London, Sheffield, Liverpool or Newcastle were doing it.

I like Steel's article as it summarises how I feel about this whole ugly mess. I also think he has pointed at why he left (though I don't know what the straw that broke the back was I suspect RESPECT/ Galloway/ etc) in his pointing to the late 90s onwards. He was always the type to question the leadership or ignore stuff he didn't want to trumpet to be fair, and drifted away several times if I remember correctly - but didn't we all.

MPOV specific to Manchester, I would pinpoint the watershed as a exactly the war in Yugoslavia and the response we made to it good, the lessons learned from that nationally and the subsequent move into the socialist Alliance bad.

I've said for some time I think that probably the Socialist Parties model for the Socialist Alliance was probably better.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Absolutely. It always bemuses me when other lefties say the SWP had a dreadful tradition of theory within the party, with nothing read bar [arty material. Far far from it from my experience of the eighties especially. We were encouraged to read anything and everything - barring other lefty papers. Certainly all the Marxist classics (or the trot version of Marxist classics at least), other left critics, I even read Mandel at some point. Because it was, in large part, quite good. And you had to argue back, cos, as Cliff put it, the branches had to be prepared for the day the CC was all arrested and locked up. The branches had to be able to anaylse and lead themselves, not rely on the centre to do their thinking for them.

And arguing with/taking the piss out of Millies could be fun.

Happy days.

to be fair, I cannot remember exactly. Is definitely less than 10, don't think it less than five years ago are pretty sure Chris Harman asked me to put this on my website;
***Some new digital recordings of 1969 debate between Ernest Mandel and Mike Kidron. Kidron and Mandel debate.