SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Jean-Luc]

while the suffragettes were frequently made up of middle class women there were trade union movements for the vote and this surely isn't a reason to reject the entire thing

I don't want to continue to derail this discussion but, for the record, I don't think you understand what the situation was in the early 1900s. Only men who had a minimum property qualification were allowed to vote. This disfranchised about a third of men. The main suffragette movement was demanding, not universal suffrage, but votes for women on the same terms as men. This would have still left most women without the vote and would in fact have increased the proportion of rich people in the electorate. That's why that particular demand was opposed (and should have been). As you point out, some trade unionists and others were demanding universal suffrage. That was more in line with working-class interests and should not have been opposed (and wasn't).

Now back to the topic of the thread

 

[SpineyNorman]

Oh dear.

 

[frogwoman]

The article doesn't make that very clear, it seems like it's opposing the whole of the suffragette movement and using sexist language to do so.

 

[killer b]

We dont seem to understand very much do we. Thank god you're here to put us straight.

 

[Jean-Luc]

The article doesn't make that very clear, it seems like it's opposing the whole of the suffragette movement and using sexist language to do so.

Ah well, let's carry on. Here's another article from 1910 giving another flavour of the time. And here's an extract which is still valid today:

The agitation for Woman’s Suffrage as at present constituted is one that depends for its success upon the increasing antagonism between the sexes. Instead of the political and economic separation of men and women, we, as Socialists, want a closer political and economic union; we want the organisation of men and women, not in opposite camps, but in one world-wide body, out for the overthrow of Capitalism and the establishment of the Socialist Commonwealth, which alone can give economic emancipation to the workers of the world, male and female. The oft-quoted lines by Tennyson (who by some unaccountable means did occasionally say something that was worth saying):

“The woman’s cause is man’s: they rise or sink
Together, dwarf’d or godlike, bond or free”;

apply with irresistible force to the working class.

 

[Jean-Luc]

We dont seem to understand very much do we. Thank god you're here to put us straight.

Actually I wasn't needed in this instance as SpineyNorman had already put Frogwoman straight before me.

 

[The39thStep]

Exactly. Though for balance it's probably worth pointing out that some of the suffragettes propaganda was along the lines of 'how come these dirty smelly prole men get the vote and we superior, morally upright middle class women don't? give us the vote and we'll be a bulwark against socialism'. There was also one that talked about votes for m/c women being necessary to maintain white supremacy. It was all a bit messy back then.

You are absolutely right, on one hand many of the Liberals thought that giving the vote to women would mean increased votes for the Conservatives, on the other hand many Tories thought that it would mean votes for communism . The suffragettes like any single issue campaign had all sorts of people in it with a wide range of views.You couldn't knock their level of direct action , these days it would border on domestic terrorism, Both wings of the suffragettes called a halt to direct action when the WW! broke out and some campaigned vigorously in favour of the war. Some of the best activists became communists , some joined the BUF . Sylvia Pankurst was a very active early communist and republican ( before ending up supporting Haili Selassie , Emily and Christabel formed a womens party which wanted equal pay, maternity provision etc but campaigned for the abolition of trade unions and Emily ended up as a Tory candidate .

 

[discokermit]

isn't all this a bit of a derail?

 

[Jean-Luc]

isn't all this a bit of a derail?

Yes, but butchers started it. A parting shot: Adela Pankhurst became a fascist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, I have been an office rep and there was a groper who everybody knew about but the women took it in their stride and laughed it off, but that was years ago and times have changed. What you say above makes sense (except I'm not sure about automatic suspension as this might give rise to malicious complaints).

Edit: Forgot to add. I wouldn't want to handle a case of alleged rape. Have you ever had to?

No, "only" a violent sexual assault (would be classified as rape nowadays, under current legislation, but this was the '80s). Fortunately, we convinced the woman to go to the police, and supported her through her complaint, including running interference when the bosses tried various tactics to undermine her and bringing complaints against them further up the management food-chain for doing so.

 

[JimW]

To continue it a bit, watched a doc on Western interest in Asian martial arts not long back and there was a squad of women who's job it was to protect one of the Pankhursts from arrest at mass meetings who became some of the first practitioners of jiu-jitsu, apparently.

 

[The39thStep]

isn't all this a bit of a derail?

On one hand yes .I have been away for a week was in need of a quick fix of some intellectual stimulation and got bored with pages 265- 269.
On the other hand part of the SWP discussion has been on their tradition and its relationship to feminism.

 

[The39thStep]

To continue it a bit, watched a doc on Western interest in Asian martial arts not long back and there was a squad of women who's job it was to protect one of the Pankhursts from arrest at mass meetings who became some of the first practitioners of jiu-jitsu, apparently.

Edith Garrud: the Suffragette who knew jujutsu

http://www.lulu.com/shop/tony-wolf/...l;jsessionid=203D7F27A27A226CC749EA624ECE56D3

(With 29 illustrations; suggested for readers aged 12 and older.)

 

[discokermit]

On one hand yes .I have been away for a week was in need of a quick fix of some intellectual stimulation and got bored with pages 265- 269.
On the other hand part of the SWP discussion has been on their tradition and its relationship to feminism.

even the loyalists aren't arguing jean luc's position. for them, rape and physical abuse warrants a two year suspension and being told to read some books.

this second case seems to be even worse than the delta case. the sheffield organiser has harrassed and hit female comrades and raped at least one and has been suspended for two years. andy wilson, who proposed the setting up of a cultural magazine, was expelled, quite specifically, for life! the priorities of the cc are truly fucked up.
oh, and when a cc member was invited up to let the district know the reason for the dismissal, they were told the fulltimer had "done a lot for the party, was a great organizer and they hoped he's be back soon.". also, he had been dismissed for "serious sexist behaviour".

 

[The39thStep]

even the loyalists aren't arguing jean luc's position. for them, rape and physical abuse warrants a two year suspension and being told to read some books.

this second case seems to be even worse than the delta case. the sheffield organiser has harrassed and hit female comrades and raped at least one and has been suspended for two years. andy wilson, who proposed the setting up of a cultural magazine, was expelled, quite specifically, for life! the priorities of the cc are truly fucked up.
oh, and when a cc member was invited up to let the district know the reason for the dismissal, they were told the fulltimer had "done a lot for the party, was a great organizer and they hoped he's be back soon.". also, he had been dismissed for "serious sexist behaviour".

I wasn't saying they were. I was getting into the suffragette debate.

Re priorities.Can see the point you are making but there are loads of people who have been expelled (presumably be for life)What is the case to single out Andy Wilson aside form the fact that you were a mate of his?

 

[discokermit]

.

 

[discokermit]

I wasn't saying they were. I was getting into the suffragette debate.

Re priorities.Can see the point you are making but there are loads of people who have been expelled (presumably be for life)What is the case to single out Andy Wilson aside form the fact that you were a mate of his?

in andy's case, they made it specific that it was for life. which, when you consider how trivial the accusation was, made it a good example to contrast against a two year suspension for harrasment and violence against female comrades.

 

[The39thStep]

in andy's case, they made it specific that it was for life. which, when you consider how trivial the accusation was, made it a good example to contrast against a two year suspension for harrasment and violence against female comrades.

I agree with you re the difference.

 

[discokermit]

oh, and apparently, the sheffield rapist still has a hundred and fifty swp friends on facebook.

 

[The39thStep]

oh, and apparently, the sheffield rapist still has a hundred and fifty swp friends on facebook.

how many has Andy got?

 

[discokermit]

how many has Andy got?

what's the relevance?

 

[emanymton]

even the loyalists aren't arguing jean luc's position. for them, rape and physical abuse warrants a two year suspension and being told to read some books.

this second case seems to be even worse than the delta case. the sheffield organiser has harrassed and hit female comrades and raped at least one and has been suspended for two years. andy wilson, who proposed the setting up of a cultural magazine, was expelled, quite specifically, for life! the priorities of the cc are truly fucked up.
oh, and when a cc member was invited up to let the district know the reason for the dismissal, they were told the fulltimer had "done a lot for the party, was a great organizer and they hoped he's be back soon.". also, he had been dismissed for "serious sexist behaviour".

The Sheffield case sounds much worse, one of the reason why I am still not sure I believe it, at least not the version Cohen puts forward. I struggle to accept that the SWP is that bad, it sounds like a totally different party to the one I was a member of.

 

[discokermit]

The Sheffield case sounds much worse, one of the reason why I am still not sure I believe it, at least not the version Cohen puts forward. I struggle to accept that the SWP is that bad, it sounds like a totally different party to the one I was a member of.

i friended richard seymour on facebook to find out more. one of the women who posted there had put in a complaint about the fulltimer. from what she says, it was worse than the guardian article makes out.

 

[kavenism]

Anyone got any news on how conference is going? Have they passed the motion on 'slow fire' for SEYMOUR! yet?

 

[Jean-Luc]

even the loyalists aren't arguing jean luc's position.

For the record, my position is that allegations of rape should not be judged by a party committee but that the complainant should be encouraged to take the matter to the police.

I can see a case for a code of conduct governing non-criminal sexual harassment and for decisions after a member has been convicted, but not for a party committee to judge allegations of rape and serious sexual assault.

 

[kavenism]

i friended richard seymour on facebook to find out more. one of the women who posted there had put in a complaint about the fulltimer. from what she says, it was worse than the guardian article makes out.

The situation seems to be confused by the fact that there are at least two women, possibly more whose experiences are now in the public domain. The Cohen source is the one known to me, and everything she has passed on is true to the best of my knowledge. The woman from Shefield I don't know anything about. The guy in question was organiser in a couple of regions.

There is still a lot to come out about the fulltimer accused, he really is a piece of shit. An interesting fact, and perhaps one which colours the perspective of some of those friends he retains from the party is that while a member is was subject to a false accusation from the police, which the party invested significant resources in defending him from.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

The Sheffield case sounds much worse, one of the reason why I am still not sure I believe it, at least not the version Cohen puts forward. I struggle to accept that the SWP is that bad, it sounds like a totally different party to the one I was a member of.

I really, really fucking hope it isn't.

 

[Before Theory]

The Sheffield case sounds much worse, one of the reason why I am still not sure I believe it, at least not the version Cohen puts forward. I struggle to accept that the SWP is that bad, it sounds like a totally different party to the one I was a member of.

That's exactly how I felt when I first heard about Comrade W's complaint, this couldn't be my Party, I was sure the leadership would deal with it sensitively and supportively.

I then watched over a period of nearly two years as the CC put pressure on her not to take the case to the DC, and eventually we had the 2011 conference where Delta got to stand up and lie for 10 minutes about Comrade W and his "relationship" with her.

On the basis of those lies he got a standing ovation, and Comrade W's friends and supporters were shouted at and intimidated quite openly in the conference hall.

It took me two full years to accept that the party I had built in good faith for over 10 years really was this corrupt. So, emanymton, I can understand your unwillingness to accept these horrific stories as part and parcel of the SWP of today. I am still devastated by it all, as are many of the other comrades who left around the same time.

The Sheffield case came to light after I left the SWP but having met the young woman and also worked with her attacker, I know who I believe.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Probably. But not as bad as being part of a lynch mob as here.

Several people pointing out your useless stupidity doesn't constitute a lynch mob.

Louis MacNeice

 

[emanymton]

i friended richard seymour on facebook to find out more. one of the women who posted there had put in a complaint about the fulltimer. from what she says, it was worse than the guardian article makes out.

Worse, it's hard to imagine how it could be. :-(