well, i didn't actually say that, where I am the majority behaved appallingly, gerrymandering meetings, whipping up schoolchildren to a frenzy during Iraq war demos, accusing people of having MH issues if they proposed different strategies, nationally I saw them undermine the principles and structures of the ESF, i could go on...
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Or just thanked the Lord for the divine attention, then gone away and read the Bible.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Apart from the obvious fact that this trade union, and political party, are also employers and therefore have the same duty of care to their employees as any other employer; you've just said that trade unions and political parties don't have a wider duty to their members and the working class - that includes women, the young, the old, people with disabilities and minorities. Unless you somehow think that the working class consists of fucking thugs and anyone that doesn't meet that description can be disregarded/oppressed in the process of your fucking politics.
Makes me want to fucking vomit.
sptme
我打酱油的
Is it not one of the objectives of the SP to fight against sexism and end women's oppression?
What about if a member did a bit of gay-bashing or paki-bashig, would that be OK too? Or is violence agaisnt women private and non political where as racial and homophobic violence is considered political by you?
Are you really going to insist that rape, domestic violence and and sexual harassment are not political issues, that their are no oppressive power relationships there?
As to what the SP should do - I think the guy should be 'suspend without prejudice' while they investigate. there is no presumption of guilt in this. the remit of the investigation should not be to find the guy guilty or not guilty of domestic violence, rather to judge on the balance of probability whether his behaviour is compatible with the membership of an organisation that fights against sexism and women's oppression.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Is that what I've said, SWP membership=rapist?
Around 1 in 20 or 30 males are rapists, I'd expect it to be much, much lower in a self-selective revolutionary body like the SWP. It would be at the same level for anarchists, other Trotsykists, Marxist Leninists, republicans, left communists or whatever.
There are better ways of dealing with abusers and harassers within the movement, if we saw ourselves as a movement instead of discrete, closed parties. You do see yourself as part of movement, don't you? The botching of the investigation conducted within SWP DC procedure is a testament to trying to do it as a party.
My point is on these lines: To someone who was a rapist or a sexual harasser but a member of the SWP, being given reading material on women's liberation from the same party, is a mistake.
At best it would do nothing, at worst, it would stabilise the assumption that their behaviour was a minor foible within the struggle. A struggle rests in the party, leading the working-class to a future revolution, whilst the workplace slowly subsumes everyone to be a worker (male and female).
Hence the purity of the party must be maintained, let's not tell anyone anything.
In the very worst cases, it could lead to the conclusion that as long as the party isn't harmed, minor sexist behaviour towards, say, non-members, is a meaningless issue, hence they should shift their approach in that direction.
I can try to dig up other SWP material I have, like where feminist organisations in the US are blamed in the 1980s for moving away from the workplace to concentrating on rape and sexual violence. It was what I had to hand, so what if it's Marxist- its basic point are: no female sections within the party and with the workplace struggle led by the party, we can and will win just as we did in Russia. It's not surprising that women choose non-struggle or purely a cross-class focus on all women when faced with the practice of the party, and a careful reading of the literature behind the party that says 'we're too good for women's sections, we're leading a revolution don't you know'.
kavenism
Progressive misanthrope
You are deviating into bourgeois deontological notions of duty comrade. On reflection you will see that there is no abstract concept of duty but only a single concrete necessity; the necessity that the party survive to complete its task no matter how many unavenged rapes, abuses, scandals, crises, and crushed individuals pile up around the faithful. It is not for you to enquire into the mystery of the divine economy.
Or something like that
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
And people wonder why stalinism developed.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
The party is the key to the revolution - things that grow the party are good, things that weaken it are bad. Wider knowledge of sexual harassment from that minority, the CC has deemed a very bad thing. Wider knowledge of sexual harassment from a minority within the CC, the CC has deemed a very bad thing indeed.
kavenism
Progressive misanthrope
It's frightening just how smoothly a defence of the party can start to sound like a totalitarian liturgy.
(Edit)
Actually that's a bit strong. I should say Toytown totalitarian liturgy. Try saying that after a few jars.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Nothing you say will change the outlook:
"Declaration of Principles
THE SOCIALIST PARTY OF GREAT BRITAIN HOLDS:
7. That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.
8. The Socialist Party of Great Britain, therefore, enters the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties, whether alleged labour or avowedly capitalist, and calls upon the members of the working class of this country to muster under its banner to the end that a speedy termination may be wrought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labour, and that poverty may give place to comfort, privilege to equality, and slavery to freedom."
Members of other political bodies of alleged labour need war waging on them.
kavenism
Progressive misanthrope
Except at elections where those same political bodies of alleged labour need voting for (without illusions)!
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
No you need to write 'World Socialism' on your ballot paper, if you just not turn up, expect hostility.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
All parties are bad apparently
“The party’s recent difficulties don’t begin with what our old National Secretary did (whatever that was), or who it was on the CC who rang up the DC to persuade the comrades on it to reverse their original, interim verdict of misconduct inappropriate of an SWP member (whatever textile of jacket he wears)”
on Seymours FB page, this was posted by a commenter, I wonder who they mean...
on Seymours FB page, this was posted by a commenter, I wonder who they mean...
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
unlike certain others I have demonstrated my concern for women's rights in action, not in pc moralising
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
People have been missing the point I was trying to make. Of course sexual assault, wife-beating, etc should be condemed, but my point is that it is not up to a trade union or a political party to constitute itself a court and decide whether or not someone has done something like this. This is not only unnecessary but dangerous as "miscarriages of justice" (one way or the another) are more likely. If somebody in an organisation makes an allegation of this kind against some other member the advice should be "go to the police" not to an internal disciplinary committee with an appeal to a conference. It's unbelievable that allegations of this sort should be discussed and decided on at a trade union or political conference (and in fact that the details should be discussed on a bulletin board like this, with anyone putting in their penny's worth as if they were members of a jury). What the SWP should be condemned for is not for having reached the wrong verdict, but for having presumed to judge such a serious allegation.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So when the SWP had a complaint of rape made against one of the CC by a fellow member what they should have done is just shrug their shoulders and tell her that they couldn't do anything.
Christ, is this official SPGB policy?
Christ, is this official SPGB policy?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
SPGB. Not a thread for ambiguity.
Seymour's fb comments on the Nick Cohen article have a lot more detail, including a post from the woman in Sheffield who went to the DC. I don't want to reproduce it but suffice to say Cohen really hasn't been able to print it all and it's horrific. I have no idea how anyone could defend the "able to reapply to rejoin in 2 years" part.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Not everybody's posting from a PC...
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Aye sorry, edited.
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
No, of course not. You're still not getting my point. Of course they shouldn't just shrug their shoulders, but they shouldn't set out to judge whether or not the complaint is valid. They should tell the person to go to the police. Otherwise they will end up having to ask embarrasing questions of the complainant (as the SWP seems to have done) or to question the accused without him being able to plead the Fifth Amendment or invoke any of the protections that civil rights lawyers have fought for over the years. If the accused is convincted in a proper court of law, then something could be done but not before. Anyway, that's my personal view.
Lower Ground
New Member
http://hurryupharry.org/2013/03/09/...-workers-party-figure/#comments#disqus_thread
perp.named in comments
perp.named in comments
Before Theory
Active Member
Yes and your apologies for your CC by Internet are also fun innit.
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