SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

I know he does but Oisin wanted to throw some sand in our eyes "
I read it as correcting the factual record by pointing out the RSDLP's pre-October practice, but not necessarily implying that is what he would want to see in the SWP now"

The only caveat I'd have is we can't be sure who actually wrote this or a lot of the Platform stuff cause of the group signature they put after each blog piece.

Why would they do such a thing? I don't know anyone who would try to pick off and target individual members to suggest that thee rest of them are following the orders of someone who was never in the tradition and was moving away form them anyway. Do you?

 

[mk12]

Joseph Choonara: Why are the students in revolt? Because we made a mistake in 2011, when students joined around the Millbank etc movement. We should have made a sharp turn toward SWP theory in the SWSS groups

Maybe because they're not happy with how the W v Delta case was handled?

 

[killer b]

latest leak is incredible. they're totally fucked aren't they?

 

[two sheds]

Yep is all great stuff, particularly things like:

"Alex then summed up the session: The crisis has been driven from within the party. Snowball is the principal culprit. He is an eclectic thinker; he grabs ideas from everywhere—including even Mr. Jones!—and throws them into an “incoherent mess.”

 

[Oisin123]

But when we are comparing more subtle things, it is less clear who is "advanced" and who isn't, or who is "ahead" of whom.

This is very true. The most radical ideas and practices can quickly become conservative and sometimes certain strands of conservative thought can be transformed into their opposite too. I've noticed that whenever you have a discussion about something that is dialectical, you always get people arguing either extreme: in this case either that the CC of the SWP are the most advanced leaders vs leave it to the working class to spontaneously figure things out. In an ideal situation, you have an organisation of revolutionaries that has the modesty to appreciate there are always new developments and experiences to learn from, while at the same time, undertaking arguments and taking initiatives that are generalised from actual successes in the working class movement. I don't think any of us have really tasted something like this since the Miners' Strike. Although it is possible to read about the historical experience of revolutionary parties with real connections to the working class and with an open and vibrant internal life. And doing so helps put the SWP today in (a very poor) perspective.

 

[Red Cat]

Advanced meaning consciously engaged in/leading the class struggle, not having a bunch of clever progressive ideas in your head.

 

[butchersapron]

Are the two not the same - or at least grow out of the same roots, the same understanding?

 

[SpackleFrog]

But if you think you're part of an advanced layer won't that mean that you might - might - be less likely to reflect on your beliefs and be critical of yourself and those of the party because you'd think you were right anyway?

Maybe an advanced layer is a layer of people who do just that. And in fairness that's a bit discursive; you're no less likely to be self critical if you don't view yourself to be "advanced" than if you do. The main thing in any political organisation is to follow the method and not the faith.

 

[Red Cat]

ba

Yes, I think so, but the emphasis in most posts has been on ideas, education, rather than learning from experience. Of course, theory, history, education, help us make sense of that experience.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Good grief it's worse than I thought, they won't even countenance any discussion - we're all going down the plug hole at this rate the SWP will be 2 wo/men & a dog

 

[killer b]

They should have a belt system for class warriors, like with karate. Just to avoid any confusion.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In the SWP world the working class exists as a series of "layers"...

Partially borrowed from Max Weber's century-old idea of "stratification", bent to suit Swappite ends.

 

[butchersapron]

ba

Yes, I think so, but the emphasis in most posts has been on ideas, education, rather than learning from experience. Of course, theory, history, education, help us make sense of that experience.

But by what right do they appoint themselves to that role before it taking place - they aren't leading the class struggle and if the argument is that the most advanced section does that, that this is why they are the most advanced, this then makes them backward. They are not advanced - by their own lights and logic. What's their get out here?

 

[butchersapron]

They should have a belt system for class warriors, like with karate. Just to avoid any confusion.

PD are producing a series of 25/50/75/98% class conscious badges and iron on patches as we speak. (100% reserved for the founders i'm afraid)

 

[Red Cat]

But by what right do they appoint themselves to that role before it taking place - they aren't leading the class struggle and if the argument is that the most advanced section does that, that this is why they are the most advanced, this then makes them backward. They are not advanced - by their own lights and logic. What's their get out here?

They aren't leading it, no. Hence the constant haranguing by the CC about how backward most of the party are and how behind the class they are.

 

[butchersapron]

They aren't leading it, no. Hence the constant haranguing by the CC about how backward most of the party are and how behind the class they are.

So, they in fact offer no logic as to why or how they are sort of more advanced in the future but not right now (nor why by rights they should be) - beyond shouting at kids?

 

[mk12]

But by what right do they appoint themselves to that role before it taking place - they aren't leading the class struggle and if the argument is that the most advanced section does that, that this is why they are the most advanced, this then makes them backward. They are not advanced - by their own lights and logic. What's their get out here?

What, you're saying that others have had more experience in the class struggle than the son of Hon. Ædgyth Bertha Milburg Mary Antonia Frances Lyon-Dalberg-Acton?

 

[Red Cat]

So, they in fact offer no logic as to why or how they are sort of more advanced in the future but not right now (nor why by rights they should be) - beyond shouting at kids?

Oh, they shout at everybody.

 

[butchersapron]

What, you're saying that others have had more experience in the class struggle than the son of Hon. Ædgyth Bertha Milburg Mary Antonia Frances Lyon-Dalberg-Acton?

It's the quality of the experience that counts!

 

[butchersapron]

Oh, they shout at everybody.

Come on! Get advanced!

 

[imposs1904]

They are lost lost lost:

Joseph Choonara: Why are the students in revolt? Because we made a mistake in 2011, when students joined around the Millbank etc movement. We should have made a sharp turn toward SWP theory in the SWSS groups

Just out of curiousity, if you take at face value what Choonara is quoted as saying - that part of this crisis stems from the above - who carries the can for not properly educating the new intake? Surely that was an executive decision?

 

[butchersapron]

Just out of curiousity, if you take at face value what Choonara is quoted as saying - that part of this crisis stems from the above - who carries the can for not properly educating the new intake? Surely that was an executive decision?

The german person who has now resigned from the CC - that's who they're pointing directly at. It's his failure.

 

[imposs1904]

The german person who has now resigned from the CC - that's who they're pointing directly at. It's his failure.

seriously? wow.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, you're fucked bergfeld.

 

[articul8]

Well ok a step backwards for those who see/ saw the future as saving a deposit or trying to emulate the SSP.

the early achievements of the SSP were a start at least..

 

[imposs1904]

Yep, you're fucked bergfeld.

I think my four your old would love to be a member of the SWP's current CC. Despite being the leadership of a vanguardist organisation, any fuck ups, it's never your fault. It was the other guy's fault. (In his case, his wee brother - who happened to be born in 2011, so that ties in nicely and explains his wee brother's lack of grounding in IS theory.)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It seems that the latest leak wasn't from the person who wrote it. It was circulated to a dozen or so oppositionists as an internal thing before someone sent it on to the WW. As imposs1904 mentioned earlier it's much too easy for the CC to work out who wrote it

 

[Pickman's model]

I think my four your old would love to be a member of the SWP's current CC.

does your young son want everyone to despise him?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Advanced meaning consciously engaged in/leading the class struggle, not having a bunch of clever progressive ideas in your head.

There's only one word I take issue with in your post. It's "leading", because conscious engagement as and assumption of the mantle of "leading" of the class struggle, outwith any form of delegation of that leadership by the class to that person or people, is a contributor to the alienation of the working class from organised left politics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are the two not the same - or at least grow out of the same roots, the same understanding?

Very much so.