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SWP expulsions and squabbles

bolshiebhoy said:
What I find funniest about your and Oisin's defence of RS on Leninism is the dancing around the edges of what he's actually saying. if he quotes approvingly the pre October practice of individual leadership elections and permanent factions that's not because he actually supports those things, oh no he's just showing that there is an alternative to the cc's definition of Leninism.
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How is this dancing around the edges? How is saying that the Bolsheviks in Lenin's time had, for instance, individual election or permanent factions "an attack on Leninism"? For that matter, what makes you think that there's any confusion about whether Seymour supports those things, or any attempt to disguise it? He does support those things.
 
"Gareth Dale: Disagrees with Sheila’s argument that nothing’s changed in the outside world. First, it has. Generally, to the detriment of the SWP’s reputation, but not simply that. For example, anarchist friends of mine have congratulated us on the seriousness with which we’ve approached the issue, and mentioned that they—who experienced similar difficulties in dealing with sexual harassment—have found our campaign inspiring. But even if the outside world is oblivious, a special conference is still necessary, due to the tumult in the organisation etc."
Ones. Jaw. Drops.
 
discokermit said:
i don't disagree with that at all. my point was specific about no one giving a shit in decades. if syndicalists occupied the space the leninist left has occupied those events may well have happened, greater things may even have happened over the decades and then people would have given a shit.
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You misunderstood what I said. Admittedly being very crude, in response to frogwoman's post about issues of organisation and accountability I was specifically on about people who consider themselves 'advanced,' and being active in organisations which consider themselves a vanguard in the Leninist sense, and most working class people for multi-factorial reasons not really giving a shit about that, and/or as frogwoman said too, being put off by such arrogant, self-regarding behavior (these people being advanced and would-be leaders, being part of a tendency that best represents them, holding the key to unlocking socialism etc). Not that many many working class people haven't given a shit about anything that affects them or been willing to fight for things. There has been a rejection of the above. Yes, some of the best organised political activity has come from working class people, and those people have been Leninists, have not denied that.
 
THis is paranoid madness:

There are two types of group that are trying to change the party by fait accompli. The first group seeks to create external pressures. China, and I suspect Richard, encouraged Laurie Penny to write in the Independent.
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I would have loved to have made this up.
 
They are lost lost lost:

Joseph Choonara: Why are the students in revolt? Because we made a mistake in 2011, when students joined around the Millbank etc movement. We should have made a sharp turn toward SWP theory in the SWSS groups.
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When I was in the party I was told Choonara had a scrap book full of pictures of road kill. Didn’t stop him getting on the CC even if it was true.
 
It's all so shit now, there's no rip it up and start again faction, it's just the do what you were doing one second before you changed faction.
 
Alex then summed up the session: The crisis has been driven from within the party. Richard Seymour is the principal culprit. He is an eclectic thinker; he grabs ideas from everywhere—including even Bob Jessop!—and throws them into an “incoherent mess
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S/he's right but the including even Bob Jessop! has more than hint of the amish about it.
 
If party members refuse to accept the legitimacy of the decisions taken at the special conference, “lynch mobs” (his words) will be formed. [He didn’t say whether or not he’d give a green light to such organisations.]
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Whose square brackets are these?
 
kavenism said:
When I was in the party I was told Choonara had a scrap book full of pictures of road kill. Didn’t stop him getting on the CC even if it was true.
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That would be a rather odd thing for a Vegan to do. The scrapbook, not going on the CC.
 
but also it reflects the political ambitions of the Historical Materialism editorial board: it’s a repeat of ‘NLR syndrome’—Perry Anderson sought to profile himself as self-appointed generalissimo of the class struggle; these HM editors see themselves in a similar light.
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This is crazy emo-scene stuff it really is. (Note that the prof's allthusserims was not deemed structural enough for NLR in the 70s)
 
Does anyone call bullshit on this?

Gareth Dale: For example, anarchist friends of mine have congratulated us on the seriousness with which we’ve approached the issue, and mentioned that they— who experienced similar difficulties in dealing with sexual harassment— have found our campaign inspiring.


This is just mad on many levels.

Alex then summed up the session: The crisis has been driven from within the party. Richard Seymour is the principal culprit. He is an eclectic thinker; he grabs ideas from everywhere—including even Bob Jessop!—and throws them into an “incoherent mess.”
Martin Smith must be allowed to fully return to political activity. Hannah’s analysis of the students is wrongheaded.
The students are not some vanguard on issues of oppression, as she implies; rather, they’ve lost their way as a result of our flawed approach in 2011—as Joseph outlined. There’s no way a 3 month discussion period before the special conference will be allowed. It would “destroy” us. If party members refuse to accept the legitimacy of the decisions taken at the special conference, “lynch mobs” (his words) will be formed.

"The students have lost their way." I think the Counterfire split hit them hard. Even though it was only Rees and German of the big names, a lot of the people were student leaders former elected NUS people who had standing in the SWSS branches.
 
imposs1904 said:
Jesus, how many people were in the room whilst this meeting was being surreptitiously 'minuted'? If they can't find the source of this leak, then they're not my vanguard.
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It wouldn't be difficult to record the meeting for anyone with a smartphone.

It looks to me that Alex Callinicos is leading the Vanguard in a rearguard action. Or to put it more crudely trying to cover their backsides. It won't work, lynch mobs or no.
 
Martin Smith must be allowed to fully return to political activity.
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Madness utter madness. One of the consequences of the mess the SWP made of this is that even if he is innocent he will always carry this with him, any chance of him being 'exonerated' was destroyed by them. If I was him and if I believed I was innocent I would be seriously pissed off with them.
ETA: This is not the only thing mad about it of course.

Now I probably shouldn't say anything but there is something about this report from the ISJ meeting that has really pissed me of, but I don't think anyone else would spot it and I don't want to say any more. So a bit of a useless thing to say really, but I am a very angry.
 
I'm new here, but this thread and the issues it deals with are fascinating. One question:

Nigel Irritable said:
I think it might be my favourite leak of the whole row. The stuff about the Historical Materialism editorial board is just golden.
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Is the the place to discuss favourite leaks related to this row, or should that go on another thread?
 
emanymton said:
Madness utter madness. One of the consequences of the mess the SWP made of this is that even if he is innocent he will always carry this with him, any chance of him being 'exonerated' was destroyed by them. If I was him and if I believed I was innocent I would be seriously pissed off with them.
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For that pissed-off-ness to be valid, wouldn't we have to assume that all through this process "comrade delta" has been arguing to his CC colleagues that the party should conduct its investigations in a more open manner (whatever we might mean by that), but that the majority (believing in their more advanced position and more correct analysis?) have steadfastly over-ruled him?

Seriously, how likely is that?
 
4 things stand out to me from this transcript.

One the faction all insist on clear blue water between themselves and the platform, even while defending the latter against expulsions they make plain they don't agree with their mishmash of ideas.

Two the admission of a mistake in not educating the student influx in 2011 was kind of inevitable once you start saying the students are influenced by feminism etc.

Three how can the prof possibly be arguing that delta return to full public activity?! That's the most shocking thing in it.

Finally is anyone surprised they are threatening retaliation if people still carry this on after the conference?! Agree with them or not at some point they have to get on with normal business and put this to bed. If people still aren't happy with the outcome after that then they surely need to either accept they've lost or move on and do something new for themselves outside the SWP.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
How is this dancing around the edges? How is saying that the Bolsheviks in Lenin's time had, for instance, individual election or permanent factions "an attack on Leninism"? For that matter, what makes you think that there's any confusion about whether Seymour supports those things, or any attempt to disguise it? He does support those things.
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I know he does but Oisin wanted to throw some sand in our eyes "
I read it as correcting the factual record by pointing out the RSDLP's pre-October practice, but not necessarily implying that is what he would want to see in the SWP now"

The only caveat I'd have is we can't be sure who actually wrote this or a lot of the Platform stuff cause of the group signature they put after each blog piece.
 
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