SWP expulsions and squabbles

[sihhi]

Sihhi was battling to grasp an earlier version of this "wisdom" from Butchersapron in post 5581. I sympathise with his difficulty, because Butchersapron's statement is such utter bollocks that it almost defies belief .

One doesn't have to be either a "Leninist" or a Trot to understand that the old statement "Without revolutionery theory there can be no revolutionery practice" contains a hard kernal of solid political truth. The capitalist state's mass media, entertainment and education systems, and indeed the traditional barroom "truisms" of everyday culture serve to seriously distort most people's everyday understandings and interpretations of daily life, the true nature of the problems people face, and the best solutions to these problems. (And this is true of any class-based social system - that is how small ruling classes mainly hold on to their privileges and class power). "Spontaneity" and "action" on its own is just as likely to lead to distinctly reactionery self-defeating actions by the oppressed in society if not connected to a radical, progressive, political belief system. In the case of capitalism, this action needs to be connected to specifically socialist values and long term aims. Without this progressive, socialist , framework , people wanting to fight against problems like housing shortages are just as likely to see local ethnic minorities as the cause of their housing problems than grasp that the housing shortages being caused by the operations of the capitalist system. People worried about high unemployment levels - the capitalist ideology fed day in day out by the popular press is more likely to lead many people to focus on the jobs supposedly "stolen" by minority communities, than on the higher level operations of the capitalist system. And so it goes on in every case of social problems and people's understanding of the real underlying basis of those problems.

Butchersapron, not just here, but elsewhere on these threads, when he actually gives us a glimpse of his reactionery spontaneist politics, seems to believe that the undifferentiated "working class" has a mysterious spontaneous "wisdom of crowds" understanding of its real interests - so left alone from the malignant influence of the "middle class left" it will, through action alone, "find the true path" forward to some sort of "working class solution" ("working class power in working class areas" perhaps ? a la that simplistic key IWCA slogan - it's so simplistic it's positively laughable !). This is of course dangerous drivel, as the key oppressed class under capitalism, deeply imbued with a huge weight of capitalist ideology, the "spontaneous" expression of the non socialist influenced working class community is just as likely to be profoundly reactionary, as progressive. What Butchers is actually extolling is usually called crass "workerism" , the "tailing" of the "spontaneous" (but hugely capitalist ideology-influenced) instincts of the undifferentiated crowd , by an opportunist political party seeking only to "ride that wave" in whatever direction it goes. The Trot/Leninist tradition is profoundly compromised and disfunctional , true, but 200 years of socialist theory and practice has given us a priceless store of working class-based knowledge and experience (yep, WORKING CLASS knowledge and experience) as to how to combat and overcome capitalism. Socialist political militants need collectively to seek to build a more open, less rigidly dogmatic, mass socialist movement. We don't need to go down any of the empty , "action without thought or theory" routes hinted at by Butchers and his coterie of chums on here. That route leads in the end to gross opportunism and reaction.

I understand this even less.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

ayatollah you really are the biggest div to darken these boards with your presence since oo I dunno; Quartz maybe?

 

[emanymton]

I understand this even less.

I can't even read it, line breaks man, line breaks.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The first two tablets.

Now take some gin.

You mean take the entire pack of tablets and down with a quart of gin

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I can't even read it, line breaks man, line breaks.

don't bother, I picked a couple of lines out and then wondered why

 

[butchersapron]

Can't trust the w/c. Who can you trust ? I know. 10 posh blokes who said that you can. I will then. I'll give them loads of time and money too.

 

[frogwoman]

I think some of the critique of leninism is that it isn't rooted in the class though. I may have misunderstood some of what I've read over the last couple of weeks because I am fairly new to this stuff after all, but it seems to me that one of the main problems a lot of left communists and anarchists have with Leninism is that it replaces the class with the party and the party's leadership are often (although not always) removed from the day to day existence and struggles, their conditions of life are different and they are "professional revolutionaries" rather than their activity arising out of what they do in the workplace and day to day life, they have a lot more control over their work than the people they represent etc, certainly in the case of things like central committees and higher level people paid by the party, in many cases anyway. Thus their views become more and more distorted and removed and they start to see things differently to what they would if they were still working and doing political activity in their spare time, again I may have misunderstood some of the criticisms but I think that's how it seems.

I don't think you have to be a "workerist" to see that that criticism has some validity, I know what workerism is and i think very few people on this site actually are

would somebody who has more knowledge of this correct me, or have i got that mostly right?

 

[emanymton]

One doesn't have to be either a "Leninist" or a Trot to understand that the old statement "Without revolutionery theory there can be no revolutionery practice" contains a hard kernal of solid political truth. The capitalist state's mass media, entertainment and education systems, and indeed the traditional barroom "truisms" of everyday culture serve to seriously distort most people's everyday understandings and interpretations of daily life, the true nature of the problems people face, and the best solutions to these problems. (And this is true of any class-based social system - that is how small ruling classes mainly hold on to their privileges and class power).

Ok serious question, where does this theory come from?

 

[two sheds]

Of course we would but not in as much detail

Yes, which is why I say it is a cover up.

we would all have been discussing rumor rather that fact and It would not have been kept quite from the membership, it was discussed at the conferree, it was discussed at the district meeting following conference. The whole idea behind there being a cover up is that they tried to hide it from the membership which is not the case.

Would we have been discussing anything? Sorry I'm getting a bit lost - are you saying they would have discussed it fully at conference, trying to cover nothing up? Including that the judging panel was packed with friends of the guy being accused?

I'd understood that there was a (successful) attempt to push it through without letting members know in advance what had actually happened so they couldn't make an informed vote. I'd also thought that at conference it was all 'move along there's nothing to see', and after the vote people were effectively unable to bring it up for another year.

 

[sihhi]

Can't trust the w/c. Who can you trust ? I know. 10 posh blokes who said that you can. I will then. I'll give them loads of time and money too.

I think you've been accused by ayatollah of "tailing" and "workerism".

 

[sihhi]

Ok serious question, where does this theory come from?

I'm sure the answer will be: "but 200 years of socialist theory and practice has given us a priceless store of working class-based knowledge and experience"

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I may have misunderstood some of what I've read over the last couple of weeks because I am fairly new to this stuff after all,

Er, who do you think you are kidding Ms frogwoman; you've been reading and doing this stuff for years, don't try that on us we've all known you (in an online sense) for like 10 - 12 years.

 

[butchersapron]

Activity produces organisation (and by activity we mean class struggle). It rarely throws up leninism. Self-replicating groups from when it might have done so, do. If, however, the class needs leninsim and this form(s) of organisation to meet its needs, then i'm sure it will find a way to express it.

Also, whilst this on the hoof drivel, it still points to the fatal misunderstanding of spontaneity that ayatollah demonstrates - he think that it means that it happens once, in one situation, when it really means the coming to light of previous forms of informal organisation. It is all about consistent ongoing real organisation.

 

[frogwoman]

Er, who do you think you are kidding Ms frogwoman; you've been reading this stuff for years, don't try that on us we've all known you (in an online sense) for like 10 - 12 years.

I meant in terms of reading communist theories that are critical of leninism

 

[sihhi]

Also, whilst this on the hoof drivel, it still points to the fatal misunderstanding of spontaneity that ayatollah demonstrates - he think that it means that it happens once, in one situation, when it really means the coming to light of previous forms of informal organisation. It is all about consistent ongoing real organisation.

leninists will say the parties - firebox counterfire and the swp and sp do this already

 

[emanymton]

Yes, which is why I say it is a cover up.



Would we have been discussing anything? Sorry I'm getting a bit lost - are you saying they would have discussed it fully at conference, trying to cover nothing up? Including that the judging panel was packed with friends of the guy being accused?

I'd understood that there was a (successful) attempt to push it through without letting members know in advance what had actually happened so they couldn't make an informed vote. I'd also thought that at conference it was all 'move along there's nothing to see', and after the vote people were effectively unable to bring it up for another year.

I have not seen anyone in the opposition make any such accusation.

I think there are two issues here.
1, did they try to cover it up from the membership? I don't think they did, I think they could and should have been more open about it, but that is not quite the same thing. They should have made it formally know that an accusation of rape had been made against a CC member as soon as the DC investigation had concluded, not 2 moths latter at their conference. There was an attempt to prevent discussion from taken place prior to the conference.

2, Did they try and cover it up from the outside world. In sense yes, but the SWP has never been particularly open about it's 'inner life' so this is nothing new or specifically related to the current situation.

 

[frogwoman]

Also surely another criticism is that if you are a leading member of a Leninist party the majority of your friends will also be in that party, so you will get a distorted view of "the class struggle on the ground"

 

[butchersapron]

I have not seen anyone in the opposition make any such accusation.

I think there are two issues here.
1, did they try to cover it up from the membership? I don't think they did, I think they could and should have been more open about it, but that is not quite the same thing. They should have made it formally know that an accusation of rape had been made against a CC member as soon as the DC investigation had concluded, not 2 moths latter at their conference. There was an attempt to prevent discussion from taken place prior to the conference.

2, Did they try and cover it up from the outside world. In sense yes, but the SWP has never been particularly open about it's 'inner life' so this is nothing new or specifically related to the current situation.

That's two issues. You point out within that that there are many many others.

 

[Oisin123]

... witness bolshieboy, the hacks have had the rug pulled completely from under their feet. strategically, i'm not so sure.

They really have. bolshieboy's main tactic of insinuating all opposition is arising from people with flawed politics has been taken from him. Now all they can try to do is divide the two oppositions. But neither set are fools and the situation now looks bleak for the CC and their bolshieboy-esque supporters. Alex is probably holding secret talks right now to prepare himself a political lifeline.

 

[The39thStep]

Just been out in Manchester, at the castle on Oldham street, with daughters and one of their boyfriends. Inadvertently learnt , after me beginning to change the world after four pints, that when boyfriend was on a nuclear fuels induction course that they were taken to some lefty cafe to experience alternative views. Turned out to be Firebox and lengthy discussion that by abolishing trident etc etc that they would all be retrained to work in hospitals etc

 

[two sheds]

They should have made it formally know that an accusation of rape had been made against a CC member as soon as the DC investigation had concluded, not 2 moths latter at their conference. There was an attempt to prevent discussion from taken place prior to the conference.

How did they present it at the conference? What did they tell the membership and what did they leave out?

2, Did they try and cover it up from the outside world. In sense yes, but the SWP has never been particularly open about it's 'inner life' so this is nothing new or specifically related to the current situation.

That is still a cover-up more widely. That they normally cover up stuff that they don't want to get out is no defence.

 

[sihhi]

Just been out in Manchester, at the castle on Oldham street, with daughters and one of their boyfriends. Inadvertently learnt , after me beginning to change the world after four pints, that when boyfriend was on a nuclear fuels induction course that they were taken to some lefty cafe to experience alternative views. Turned out to be Firebox and lengthy discussion that by abolishing trident etc etc that they would all be retrained to work in hospitals etc

Nothing wrong with the goal.

I personally can't see how their actions will spearhead it:

"comedy from:
Stewart Lee
Mark Steel
Francesca Martinez
Mark Thomas
Jeremy Hardy
Lee Camp
Andy Zaltzman

And contributions from Tony Benn and Clare Solomon
Wed 1st May @ the Bloomsbury Theatre, London
Doors open at 7pm
To order tickets to go www.thebloomsbury.com or call 020 7388 8822

For more information go to www.fireboxlondon.net or call 07595822145"

Firebox has opened its doors to the movement to host a wide range of lectures, film showings, discussion groups, exhibitions and activist meetings. We hope to raise enough funds to expand its media centre to offer citizen journalism courses and educational seminars and facilitate our work organising a mass pro-democracy movement against war, austerity and inequality."

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I'm glad austerity only comes second

 

[emanymton]

How did they present it at the conference? What did they tell the membership and what did they leave out?

Read the Transcript that its all in there

That is still a cover-up more widely. That they normally cover up stuff that they don't want to get out is no defence.

I wasn't suggesting it was, just that they have not tried to cover this situation up specifically, it is business as normal. For some reason this case is really brining out out the pedant in me.

 

[frogwoman]

A mass movement going beyond traditional conceptions of left and right

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

A mass movement going beyond traditional conceptions of left and right

Marinne LePen can tell you about that

 

[emanymton]

A mass movement going beyond traditional conceptions of left and right

That must get bloody confusing trying to give someone directions.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

That must get bloody confusing trying to give someone directions.

only at a T-junction

 

[sihhi]

I'm glad austerity only comes second

http://www.thebloomsbury.com/event/run/1782
"Firebox is a haven for dangerously progressive ideas in the heart of London. This is a political project initiated by Counterfire and bringing the best the left has to offer in ideas, debate, art and culture."
Anyway 25 quid a pop, plus 2.50 transaction fee.

'the best the left has to offer in... culture'

 

[butchersapron]

Read the Transcript that its all in there


I wasn't suggesting it was, just that they have not tried to cover this situation up specifically, it is business as normal. For some reason this case is really brining out out the pedant in me.

A cover up of a specific situation in a wider situation of ongoing cover up does not mean that either is not a cover-up - nor what they are covering up (specific and general) are not cock-ups.