SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

It's precisely because my own "tradition" (I don't particularly like the term) also places an emphasis on using a paper as an organiser, that I'm pretty skeptical of the various stories you hear about the SWP and their quotas and their secretly-paying-for-unsold-papers and the like.

In my experience (different party, different country), a miniscule percentage of the total sales of our paper come from "personal sales", where a member takes a few and sells them to people they know or meet, in the first place. Members are encouraged to take some, but it's really a pretty low priority. And people would thing you were nuts if you were habitually taking a bunch of papers, not selling them and then paying for them yourself.

Given that your experience then isn't of a country with 100 universities, 130 similar colleges, 50+ cities, 1000+ large towns and so on then i think the situations are not really comparable nor the emphasis placed on these sales.

 

[butchersapron]

An ex of mine was an Irish SWP branch publications officer, and I've known quite a lot of SWP members socially over the years.

I've heard the opposite, many many times and in this country, not Ireland.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You do not understand the SWP structure, it is not anarchic.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of the SWP's structure, such as it is. And their culture. And one of the ways those two things interact is that different branches and regions can be really quite vigorously different from each other, depending on the personality and outlook of a few key individuals (most importantly the District Organiser).

 

[cesare]

Did it ever occure to you that members often tell fulltimers to fuck off?

Oh aye? Told any to fuck off recently regarding the Conference vote?

 

[Santiagotalk]

That's what i said.

Branch members talk to members in other branches all the time.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I've heard the opposite, many many times and in this country, not Ireland.

You might be right. My experience is overwhelmingly of the Irish SWP and I can say with 99% certainty that they don't have an individual sales quota system. It's secondarily of the SWP as a platform of the SSP (I used to drink with a few of them), and they really didn't seem to put an emphasis on those sort of sales either, although again that might be an unusual context.

But, I remain just a bit skeptical. The two people who've mentioned being current/recent members in the last couple of pages here don't seem to think it's the norm. And it's a really, really bad idea even in terms of narrow organisational self-interest, not that they are necessarily immune to really bad ideas.

Anyway, there must be two dozen ex-members on this board who can settle this issue.

 

[butchersapron]

Branch members talk to members in other branches all the time.

Dos this mean that all branches talk to all branches all the time? Of course it doesn't. So why are you suggesting that the poster who talked earlier about being given quotas of papers to sell (and who was the paper sale organsier) is wrong? Maybe, just maybe, some branches are organised differently and part of that difference is the handing out of quotas?

 

[Santiagotalk]

And, of course, your branch is entirely typical of them all. let's assume that it is, does that mean the canteen trope has not been used over and over by SWP tops to offer some form of we're all in this together/on the busess cover to their initiatives/manouveres?

You completly underestemate the number of working comrades in the SWP. Its conveniant to say we are all students, sorry that wont wash. As for your other comments I am at a loss to understand what point you are trying to make?

 

[emanymton]

I'm surprised by that. We (small town branch) were given targets by centre, but we just sold however many we could. It varied a lot - we had good Saturdays and bad Saturdays.

We might have been given the occasional pep talk, but no way I would have bought extra papers myself. If they didn't like it, they could lump it !!

yeah my experience as well any atemped to impose targets was met with laughter. Anyone who is buying extra copies or whatever, well frankly that is their problem.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Dos this mean that all branches talk to all branches all the time? Of course it doesn't. So why are you suggesting that the poster who talked earlier about being given quotas of papers to sell (and who was the paper sale organsier) is wrong? Maybe, just maybe, some branches are organised differently and part of that difference is the handing out of quotas?

Comrade if some branches use other tactics then that sort of makes a mockery of the idea that SWP members are mindless robots. Good grief they can think for themself!

 

[audiotech]

They have targets for how many to sell a month? That's soooooooo 1950s corporate quality control.

I doubt that. There was an attempt way back for members to take an allotted amount each week. That was kicked into touch when branches voted against it, well the one I was in did.

 

[butchersapron]

Comrade if some branches use other tactics then that sort of makes a mockery of the idea that SWP members are mindless robots. Good grief thay can think for themself?

No it doesn't, it means their organsiers can think for them - and where is that claim made anyway?

More to the point, what does it do to your claim that no branches ever get given paper sale quotas?

 

[butchersapron]

yeah my experience as well any atemped to impose targets was met with laughter. Anyone who is buying extra copies or whatever, well frankly that is their problem.

Right so there were attempts to impose targets? Your branch didn't go for it.

 

[audiotech]

I suspect that even SWP fulltimers have better things to be doing than hassling people for taking five papers and only shifting three...

Never happened in all the years, remember the war etc. I'd have told them to do one.

 

[electric.avenue]

I don't think that SWP members have individual paper sales quotas. Certainly not of a sort where you have to pay for them yourself if you don't meet them.

That's right - a target is given for a branch. I certainly don't remember any pressure if it wasn't met.

 

[audiotech]

Yes, the famous SWP canteen. How many of them work in places with works canteens are there i wonder?

There used to be some. How many canteens are there in the workplace these days? The glory days of works canteens with subsidised hot meals are long gone, well apart from the House of Commons, minus the hard labour, at a number of levels.

 

[Delroy Booth]

That's right - a target is given for a branch. I was certainly don't remember any pressure if it wasn't met.

Won't that depend on the individual branch? I'm sure most branches of any trot party have targets for selling papers, but all it takes is one particularly zealous branch organiser, keen to show how good they are at flogging papers to their superiors in the party, for those voluntary targets to become a quota, and for bullying to ensue as a result of that?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's worth pointing out that there is a very big difference between branches coming up with targets of how many publications they think they can shift through all forms of branch activity and an organisation imposing personal quotas on members for publication sales on their own time (and expecting them to be met/paid for).

The first is a pretty basic logistical issue when it comes to producing any publication. You have to have a working estimate of how many you think you can sell and where, or else you are going to get your print runs all wrong, your publications sent to the wrong places, and financial problems in a hurry.

The second sounds like a standing invitation to self-delusion and/or burn out.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

On a couple of other issues:

1) I hear (from leftist trainspotters) that the Sheffield District Organiser has resigned in sympathy with the Opposition.

2) I hear (from the tendance Coatesy blog) that the number of NC members voting against the CC motion was eight. There are fifty on the NC, but it's not clear how many of them were there (I'd guess 45 or so).

 

[electric.avenue]

They must be on a sale or return basis?

You collected the batch of papers for your branch, sold what you could, sent the money for the sold ones off to centre. The remainder could then be used for compost, cats litter trays, etc.

 

[belboid]

On a couple of other issues:

1) I hear (from leftist trainspotters) that the Sheffield District Organiser has resigned in sympathy with the Opposition.

2) I hear (from the tendance Coatesy blog) that the number of NC members voting against the CC motion was eight. There are fifty on the NC, but it's not clear how many of them were there (I'd guess 45 or so).

interesting. A lot of their district full-timers are fairly recently ex-students, so it wouldnt be surprising if many of them were sympathetic to the oppositionists. And Sheffield seems (from the NC motions) to be a fairly hardline branch at the mo, so it cant have been pleasant for the organiser.


On papaer sale quota's - as Nigel says, it is hardly surprising that branches have targets, and members would be expected to sell at least 'a few' each, but nothing more stringent than that. Of course, it would happen quite frewquently that someone would be lambasted for failing to sell many papers, its a sign of the bourgeois deviationist tendencies or summat, but that isnt the same as them having specific quotas.

 

[cesare]

You collected the batch of papers for your branch, sold what you could, sent the money for the sold ones off to centre. The remainder could then be used for compost, cats litter trays, etc.

Cheers! How many were in the batch - did it depend on the number of members in the branch?

 

[audiotech]

You collected the batch of papers for your branch, sold what you could, sent the money for the sold ones off to centre. The remainder could then be used for compost, cats litter trays, etc.

An anarchist acquaintance, then in DAM, purposely bought a SW for his then Alsation pup to piss on. Hilarity all round.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Oh aye? Told any to fuck off recently regarding the Conference vote?

Yes!

 

[Santiagotalk]

An anarchist acquaintance, then in DAM, purposely bought a SW for his then Alsation pup to piss on. Hilarity all round.

No just stupid. When I buy an anarchist publication I read it. Lol.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Have to go out to a meeting now, I will be back later to play.

 

[electric.avenue]

Won't that depend on the individual branch? I'm sure most branches of any trot party have targets for selling papers, but all it takes is one particularly zealous branch organiser, keen to show how good they are at flogging papers to their superiors in the party, for those voluntary targets to become a quota, and for bullying to ensue as a result of that?

Possibly, but I can't say I ever saw it happen.

 

[cesare]

Yes!

Gwan, tell us more!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I've heard the opposite, many many times and in this country, not Ireland.

Really? I've been in 3 branches in this country after my time in Ireland and I've never had to meet a quota. I've had people who were good at selling papers give me a pep talk and hints on how to do it better as mates but no fulltimer ever told me off for being as shit at it as I was. Not turning up with the paper when I was asked to, at a picket or whatever, now that would get you a bollicking but that's fair enough.

My most traumatic paper sale memories were the pub sales we used to do in Dublin. There was intense competition between members to get the most sales and just as much competition with the An Phoblacht sellers. But the fulltimers nevere did more than sigh when I turned up a the end with my pathetic haul.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Oh aye? Told any to fuck off recently regarding the Conference vote?

Eh why would they? It's their fellow rank and file members who were delegates and voted for the conference decisions.