SWP expulsions and squabbles

[frogwoman]

In another hideous example of creeping feminism they've been deleted though

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don't think that SWP members have individual paper sales quotas. Certainly not of a sort where you have to pay for them yourself if you don't meet them.

 

[killer b]

Certainly not of a sort where you have to pay for them yourself if you don't meet them.

no-ones suggesting that.

 

[cesare]

They must be on a sale or return basis?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

no-ones suggesting that.

If they aren't then what's the point of that part of the conversation? SWP members are expected to try and sell their publications and if they don't... then nothing of any great interest happens?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They must be on a sale or return basis?

I doubt if its even that. They are unlikely to want last weeks paper back. It'll be a sale if possible, stick it in the bin if you haven't shifted them by the time next week's one is out basis.

 

[killer b]

If they aren't then what's the point of that part of the conversation? SWP members are expected to try and sell their publications and if they don't... then nothing of any great interest happens?

they're suggesting that some comrades stump up the cash to avoid a tedious lecture from a fulltimer.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think that SWP members have individual paper sales quotas. Certainly not of a sort where you have to pay for them yourself if you don't meet them.

Aye if they did that then I doubt they'd have any members left

 

[cesare]

I doubt if its even that. They are unlikely to want last weeks paper back. It'll be a sale if possible, stick it in the bin if you haven't shifted them by the time next week's one is out basis.

Must get a load of people hanging round at the end of the day hoping for a reduced price copy

Or some enterprising stude might be making them into briquettes to use as firelighters.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

they're suggesting that some comrades stump up the cash to avoid a tedious lecture from a fulltimer.

I suspect that even SWP fulltimers have better things to be doing than hassling people for taking five papers and only shifting three. If someone is routinely taking twenty and then selling one then that's a slightly different issue, but even then it's more likely to be their branch paper organiser wanting to know what they are playing at than a fulltimer, I'd have thought.

How big a role do "individual" sales (as opposed to sales at stalls, public meetings, protests, canvasses etc plus subscriptions) actually play in the SWP nowadays anyway? I suspect that they are actually quite minimal, certainly as compared to their place in the shared mythology of anarchists and liberals, who would give you the impression that the Swaps are like a left wing version of Amway.

 

[Santiagotalk]

I don't think that SWP members have individual paper sales quotas. Certainly not of a sort where you have to pay for them yourself if you don't meet them.

Individual SWP members do not have individual paper sales quotas. SWP branches do not have branch quotas. I have never paid for unsold papers or know of any other member of my branch paying for unsold papers.

 

[butchersapron]

Worse than that the middle-class members can "buy" their own Socialist Workers and avoid facing the music, working-class ones can't afford it so face the full "pep talk".
Obviously if the members were able to admit how limited their sales were to one another, they could organise a better system, but they are afraid of admitting it in case the secret is out.

Anyway, Callinicos admits he is notoriously bad at selling Socialist Worker:

"The great anti-war demonstrations in London this year - immortalized in all those photos of huge clumps of people filing along holding placards and banners - didn't just happen. They had to be organized by local activists all over the country. The SWP are only a minority among these activists, but most people involved in the anti-war movement in Britain would concede that we have played an important role. This reflects the concentrated impact that precisely the features you list - Marxist analysis, democratic centralist organization, and socialist vision - can have. Selling Socialist Worker weekly is part of the same process. It organises us to engage in a regular political dialogue with the people we encounter in our activities. Sure it can be done badly, even robotically (I'm notoriously bad at it), but the contempt that you show for socialist paper-sellers reflects more on you than on them."

There are no 'political dialogues with the people we encounter' (suggesting that this is a dialogue with the broad class) via paper sales. Whether the prof does it or not. There are crap fleeting oh so you hate clegg too, do you want to come to a meeting exchanges The prof only deigns to dialogue with people with his 95%+ level of class consciousness (badge awarded by the SWP CC) anyway.

 

[butchersapron]

Individual SWP members do not have individual paper sales quotas. SWP branches do not have branch quotas. I have never paid for unsold papers or know of any other member of my branch paying for unsold papers.

Despite one member saying that they did receive such quotas earlier today, and they in fact, organised those sales. Given that it's ILLEGAL for one branch to talk to another, just who is having the wool pulled over their eyes here?

 

[Santiagotalk]

I doubt if its even that. They are unlikely to want last weeks paper back. It'll be a sale if possible, stick it in the bin if you haven't shifted them by the time next week's one is out basis.

No comrade if you have unsold papers you leave them on the bus, in the canteen or give them to people who may show a bit of interest. You dont put them in the dustbin!

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, the famous SWP canteen. How many of them work in places with works canteens are there i wonder?

 

[killer b]

I suspect that even SWP fulltimers have better things to be doing than hassling people for taking five papers and only shifting three. If someone is routinely taking twenty and then selling one then that's a slightly different issue, but even then it's more likely to be their branch paper organiser wanting to know what they are playing at than a fulltimer, I'd have thought.

How big a role do "individual" sales (as opposed to sales at stalls, public meetings, protests, canvasses etc plus subscriptions) actually play in the SWP nowadays anyway? I suspect that they are actually quite minimal, certainly as compared to their place in the shared mythology of anarchists and liberals, who would give you the impression that the Swaps are like a left wing version of Amway.

ok. i guess they must be lying then.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Despite one member saying that they did receive such quotas earlier today, and they in fact, organised those sales. Given that it's ILLEGAL for one branch to talk to another, just who is having the wool pulled over their eyes here?

Branches dont talk to each other, comrades do! Get your facts right.

 

[butchersapron]

Branches dont talk to each other comrades do! Gert your facts right.

That's what i said.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

ok. i guess they must be lying then.

Who are lying then?

 

[Santiagotalk]

they're suggesting that some comrades stump up the cash to avoid a tedious lecture from a fulltimer.

Did it ever occure to you that members often tell fulltimers to fuck off?

 

[Santiagotalk]

That's what i said.

No I think you were taking the piss.

 

[killer b]

Did it ever occure to you that members often tell fulltimers to fuck off?

i don't really care. i was just explaining to nige what people were saying on the thread, as he didn't seem to be able to read it for himself. i know fuck all about the SWP tbh, and hope to remain in ignorance for the rest of my days.

 

[butchersapron]

I suspect that even SWP fulltimers have better things to be doing than hassling people for taking five papers and only shifting three. If someone is routinely taking twenty and then selling one then that's a slightly different issue, but even then it's more likely to be their branch paper organiser wanting to know what they are playing at than a fulltimer, I'd have thought.

How big a role do "individual" sales (as opposed to sales at stalls, public meetings, protests, canvasses etc plus subscriptions) actually play in the SWP nowadays anyway? I suspect that they are actually quite minimal, certainly as compared to their place in the shared mythology of anarchists and liberals, who would give you the impression that the Swaps are like a left wing version of Amway.

I would suspect that such petty make-work and personal power play is the mainstay of their daily operations as it goes. And sorry, but Cliff (from lenin and also part of your tradition) aggressively put forward the role of the paper as organiser - and the swp have reaffirmed this time after time and now contrast it to the internet and its concomitant darkside.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Despite one member saying that they did receive such quotas earlier today, and they in fact, organised those sales. Given that it's ILLEGAL for one branch to talk to another, just who is having the wool pulled over their eyes here?

Give the rather anarchic structure of the SWP outside of the CC and the full time apparatus, and the seemingly rather competitive culture (Birchall's Cliff biography was surprisingly revealing on that) it's entirely possible that you might get some zealot District Organiser or branch paper organiser operating a quota system of some kind in their own fiefdom, but I'm really pretty sure that it's not the norm.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Yes, the famous SWP canteen. How many of them work in places with works canteens are there i wonder?

Just shows how little you understand about the composition of SWP branches. Most of my branch are either working, unemployed workers or retaired workers. We do have a couple of students as well.

 

[butchersapron]

Give the rather anarchic structure of the SWP outside of the CC and the full time apparatus, and the seemingly rather competitive culture (Birchall's Cliff biography was surprisingly revealing on that) it's entirely possible that you might get some zealot District Organiser or branch paper organiser operating a quota system of some kind in their own fiefdom, but I'm really pretty sure that it's not the norm.

Judging by what? We've had one person say it's the norm and one say that it's not.

 

[butchersapron]

Just shows how little you understand about the composition of SWP branches. Most of my branch are either working, unemployed workers or retaired workers. We do have a couple of students as well.

And, of course, your branch is entirely typical of them all. let's assume that it is, does that mean the canteen trope has not been used over and over by SWP tops to offer some form of we're all in this together/on the busess cover to their initiatives/manouveres?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I would suspect that such petty make-work and personal power play is the mainstay of their daily operations as it goes. And sorry, but Cliff (from lenin and also part of your tradition) aggressively put forward the role of the paper as organiser.

It's precisely because my own "tradition" (I don't particularly like the term) also places an emphasis on using a paper as an organiser, that I'm pretty skeptical of the various stories you hear about the SWP and their quotas and their secretly-paying-for-unsold-papers and the like.

In my experience (different party, different country), a miniscule percentage of the total sales of our paper come from "personal sales", where a member takes a few and sells them to people they know or meet, in the first place. Members are encouraged to take some, but it's really a pretty low priority. And people would thing you were nuts if you were habitually taking a bunch of papers, not selling them and then paying for them yourself.

 

[Santiagotalk]

Give the rather anarchic structure of the SWP outside of the CC and the full time apparatus, and the seemingly rather competitive culture (Birchall's Cliff biography was surprisingly revealing on that) it's entirely possible that you might get some zealot District Organiser or branch paper organiser operating a quota system of some kind in their own fiefdom, but I'm really pretty sure that it's not the norm.

You do not understand the SWP structure, it is not anarchic. Your comment about zealot district organisers is more accurate. They can be a pain the the backside. Fortunatly there are some very good district organisers.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Judging by what? We've had one person say it's the norm and one say that it's not.

An ex of mine was an Irish SWP branch publications officer, and I've known quite a lot of SWP members socially over the years.