SWP expulsions and squabbles

[belboid]

Was that her linking to the Cohen or was that added on by one of the Socialist Unity administrators? I thought it was ambiguous.

Myself, I thought it was added on by SU admins, simply because she uses the line "politics is showbiz for ugly people" in her piece, and if that's the case, it begs the question: How many political parties is Nick Cohen a member of?

its in the original article on her own blog, so i surmise she posted it in the first place!

 

[imposs1904]

its in the original article on her own blog, so i surmise she posted it in the first place!

fair enough. I just read the article via Socialist Unity.

eta: however, I do stand by my line that no one can use the "politics is showbiz for ugly people" line and then write of Nick Cohen approvingly.

 

[cesare]

I've spoken to loads of lefty TUists (tell them, tell them!) in the last few days and I've been surprised at how many know about the SWP's problems and now consider them beyond the pale, and it's all to do with the way the allegations and investigation were handled.

Whilst it would be unfair for any TUists to hold individual SWPs to account for the actions of the CC/DC I can imagine that there might be a fair amount of nervousness about actual or perceived competence wrt to workplace sex harassment complaints & investigations. Have you heard of any suggestions of training/retraining etc?

 

[barney_pig]

it is barney lazily mis-reading things on the IS blog. One of the posters states that they were told there had been nine previous investigations. One comment states that the commentor is aware of two of those, both of which were found guilty. It doesnt [/I]say at all that they were the only ones to be found guilty, that is something barney created through the haze of his hatred

As you have a direct link with the central committee can you inform us of how many more were found "guilty" and what suitable punishment was applied?

 

[belboid]

As you have a direct link with the central committee can you inform us of how many more were found "guilty" and what suitable punishment was applied?

imbecile

 

[Nigel Irritable]

no idea in all honesty, could be either, or mixed.

Well find out then!

What's the point in you having all these left liberal connections if you aren't going to use them for our benefit?

 

[articul8]

my espionage technique involved loitering at the coffee machine and earwigging

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Whilst it would be unfair for any TUists to hold individual SWPs to account for the actions of the CC/DC I can imagine that there might be a fair amount of nervousness about actual or perceived competence wrt to workplace sex harassment complaints & investigations. Have you heard of any suggestions of training/retraining etc?

I think this is a good point and would suggest that the TU left offers leading SWP activists training or retraining on these areas and makes it a condition of future working together.

 

[cesare]

I think this is a good point and would suggest that the TU left offers leading SWP activists training or retraining on these areas and makes it a condition of future working together.

Some of the TU left *are* leading SWP activists, aren't they?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Some of the TU left *are* leading SWP activists, aren't they?

Yes, obviously I mean the others

 

[cesare]

Yes, obviously I mean the others

I'm just wondering how it's going to pan out in the TUs where TUists are also SWP activists and also are supportive of the CC/DC's handling of this rape complaint.

 

[belboid]

it wont 'pan out' at all. Absolutely nothing will happen.

 

[sihhi]

Whilst it would be unfair for any TUists to hold individual SWPs to account for the actions of the CC/DC I can imagine that there might be a fair amount of nervousness about actual or perceived competence wrt to workplace sex harassment complaints & investigations. Have you heard of any suggestions of training/retraining etc?

Why should there be? Unless both accuser and accused are SWP members.
I don't understand your suggestion. This was a case of a key CC member against a new SWP ordinary member/drone.
Why should SWP members be any less competent in dealing with employer sexual harassment than rightist Labour or Christian trade unionists?

 

[ViolentPanda]

the reason you look like a current member is because you're such a hack. i mean, who in their right mind would consider rejoining after this debacle?

also, your constant use of terms like "seymourites", syriza light", etc., is straight from the cc slur machine. it shows you have no real understanding of the situation.

Or that he's retailing a "party line".

 

[belboid]

the syriza-lite bunch

are any of them really for a Syriza light? The term looks to be more used as a lazy insult by big Al. Simply pointring out that the party made a daft sectarian error in not voting for Syriza is hardly the same as calling for a new organisation built along the same lines as it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It really is like waking up in a parallel universe, where has this ridiculous idea that the SWP exists to supply sexual fodder to the cc come from?!

Your imagination. No-one has claimed that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think this chap has "issues".....

Yeah, every issue of "Donkey-fucker Monthly", I'd say!

 

[cesare]

Why should there be? Unless both accuser and accused are SWP members.
I don't understand your suggestion. This was a case of a key CC member against a new SWP ordinary member/drone.
Why should SWP members be any less competent in dealing with employer sexual harassment than rightist Labour or Christian trade unionists?

I'm only going by the comments that I saw at the end of the piece that Nigel I linked to. There seems to be concern there, which is why I started thinking about it. I imagine that some of the worries might be that SWP TU reps might be perceived by members (rightly or wrongly) to hold managers in the workplace to a lower standard wrt to how harassment complaints are investigated.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So much for "we have no confidence in the bourgeois courts"

Well obviously, barney, they "have no confidence in the bourgeois courts". That doesn't mean that they shouldn't use them to their advantage, as any revolutionary vanguard doubtless would!

 

[sihhi]

I imagine that some of the worries might be that SWP TU reps might be perceived by members (rightly or wrongly) to hold managers in the workplace to a lower standard wrt to how harassment complaints are investigated.

That would only happen if trade unionists knew that their reps were SWP members, believed that these TU reps would go soft on an employer's culture, because the employer has some sort of connection to the SWP. Many SWP TU people did not attend the Conference based on the fact that there were only 400 SWP Conference members. If CC members like Weyman Bennett or Michael Bradley or Charlie Kimber were actually current trade union reps that would be different. I think many would separate the behaviour of the CC and DC (the ones that asked about the drinking etc, friends of the accused) from the wider SWP membership.

 

[belboid]

That would only happen if trade unionists knew that their reps were SWP members, believed that these TU reps would go soft on an employer's culture, because the employer has some sort of connection to the SWP. Many SWP TU people did not attend the Conference based on the fact that there were only 400 SWP Conference members. If CC members like Weyman Bennett or Michael Bradley or Charlie Kimber were actually current trade union reps that would be different. I think many would separate the behaviour of the CC and DC (the ones that asked about the drinking etc, friends of the accused) from the wider SWP membership.

More like 700.

One of the DC is a rep locally, I am half expecting the AWL to turn up to the next branch meeting (for the first time in a year) to demand her removal.

 

[cesare]

That would only happen if trade unionists knew that their reps were SWP members, believed that these TU reps would go soft on an employer's culture, because the employer has some sort of connection to the SWP. Many SWP TU people did not attend the Conference based on the fact that there were only 400 SWP Conference members. If CC members like Weyman Bennett or Michael Bradley or Charlie Kimber were actually current trade union reps that would be different. I think many would separate the behaviour of the CC and DC (the ones that asked about the drinking etc, friends of the accused) from the wider SWP membership.

That's why I said that it would be unfair of TUists to hold individual SWP [TUists] to account for the failings of the CC/DC. However, it clearly is a concern otherwise they wouldn't be commenting.

Probably many would separate the behaviour of the CC/DC from the wider SWP membership but some may not, particularly if they think that it's totally democratic and the CC/DC decisions reflect the wider membership.

It hadn't really occurred to me until I saw those comments, but I can see where they're coming from.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Some very nasty red baiting going on on SU orchestrated by my comrade Newman. The irony is how many ex tankies are lapping this shit up. Trying to get people kicked off tu committees cause they're members of the swp is doubly laughable coming from people in the Labour party. Course its fantasy land, won't happen but it tells me what a slug Newman is. Again.

 

[sihhi]

More like 700.

One of the DC is a rep locally, I am half expecting the AWL to turn up to the next branch meeting (for the first time in a year) to demand her removal.

OK I thought the vote was around 200 each pro-DC winning narrowly can't remember where I read the figures.

That DC TU rep is in a tricky position then, particularly as Pat Stack said his convictions led him to assert harrasment had happened.

That's why I said that it would be unfair of TUists to hold individual SWP [TUists] to account for the failings of the CC/DC. However, it clearly is a concern otherwise they wouldn't be commenting.

Probably many would separate the behaviour of the CC/DC from the wider SWP membership but some may not, particularly if they think that it's totally democratic and the CC/DC decisions reflect the wider membership.

It hadn't really occurred to me until I saw those comments, but I can see where they're coming from.

I suppose it's possible (if you don't know how the SWP operates or any SWP ex-members) to interpret the DC decision as being on a democratic mandate from below to ask those sorts of questions, conduct that kind of investigation etc.

But the fact that the argument from the DC/majority CC was on the basis of 'this is all in the past' and 'we deal with rape in our real jobs', all happening in a large conference hall with people worried about confidentiality and keeping things private to protect a woman, makes it appear as a grudging endorsement even from those who voted to accept the DC decision. It's a restrospective 'what's done is done', 'the investigation has been botched there's nothing more that can be done now' half-mandate.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

So the suggestion is Bergfeld has resigned? Can't say that's totally surprising if true.

 

[cesare]

I suppose it's possible (if you don't know how the SWP operates or any SWP ex-members) to interpret the DC decision as being on a democratic mandate from below to ask those sorts of questions, conduct that kind of investigation etc.

But the fact that the argument from the DC/majority CC was on the basis of 'this is all in the past' and 'we deal with rape in our real jobs', all happening in a large conference hall with people worried about confidentiality and keeping things private to protect a woman, makes it appear as a grudging endorsement even from those who voted to accept the DC decision. It's a restrospective 'what's done is done', 'the investigation has been botched there's nothing more that can be done now' half-mandate.

I imagine that there are many people that just take on face value what the transcript said, that the vote was whether or not to accept the report of the DC.

 

[Random]

Some very nasty red baiting going on on SU orchestrated by my comrade Newman.

I know trots love saying they're the victim of "red baiting"; the trolling of its day. but Is red baiting the appropriate word, when it's done by other socialists?

Edit: I think it's in NN Sukanov's notes on the R Revolution where the petrograd soviet was organising a "bourgeois baiting" campaign.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So the suggestion is Bergfeld has resigned? Can't say that's totally surprising if true.

Only one of the four pre-conference dissident CC members left on it now.

 

[two sheds]

I know trots love saying they're the victim of "red baiting"; the trolling of its day. but Is red baiting the appropriate word, when it's done by other socialists?

'Pinko-commie baiting'?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'd be enormously surprised if anything came of it in terms of orchestrated attempts to remove SWP trade unions from branch positions and the like.

UAF could be an issue though, if various "names" and/or unions start making a fuss.