barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
And yet this leads you to side with rape deniers? How very dialectical
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
If I thought they knew there had been a rape and had decided to cover it up I'd be right there alongside you with a pitchfork.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
The bit further down Callinicos' wall that he mentioned and a measured response from solid old head Colin Barker.
Alex Callinicos:
Thanks to Paul LeBlanc for making a serious contribution to the discussion (something shamefully absent to date). Two observations: (i) LeBlanc ignores my stress on the importance of the united front, where we work on many issues with a broad spectrum of forces, including the likes of Owen Jones; (ii) Lenin's practice, we both agree, was very variable. I'm dubious about extrapolating from what he said when in a common party with the Mensheviks and treating this as eternal wisdom. 1917 redefined the nature of revolutionary politics. Of course there was room for debate within this framework, as there is definitely within that defining the political basis of the SWP, as anyone who has followed our recent history knows. But it is always necessary to define the limits of diversity, and the parameters of comradely debate. That in itself is a political choice - not just for the SWP, but for the ISO and other revolutionary organizations. No amount of playing holier than thou (I'm not accusing Paul of this but it's true of plenty of others) can evade this choice.
Colin Barker:
Alex wrote: “But it is always necessary to define the limits of diversity, and the parameters of comradely debate. That in itself is a political choice - not just for the SWP, but for the ISO and other revolutionary organizations. No amount of playing holier than thou (I'm not accusing Paul of this but it's true of plenty of others) can evade this choice.”
As a general proposition, what Alex says is surely correct. Those limits themselves, along with the parameters of comradely debate, are however also subject to determination by context. One of the things that does seem to have happened – one might say, “for good or ill” – is that what were previously thought of as limits have been altered. Until recently, Facebook and similar social media were not widely regarded as places where the internal life of organisations like ours could suitably be discussed. That’s changed, and it’s difficult to imagine that the clock can just be wound back – not, anyway, without heavy costs. I can’t but note with interest that someone has recently posed questions about whether such public internal debate might not also occur in and around bodies like the ISO. Pandora’s Box is open, in a sense, and we will need to learn to live with that.
Many comrades have, understandably, been very reticent about participating openly in the current shitstorm – and on all sides in the arguments, I’d add. What Alex calls ‘the parameters of comradely debate’ do seem to me to have been breached rather a lot in some of what I have seen – and especially in the ‘comments’ sections that have followed the appearance of many of the flurries of documents. Abusive personal remarks don’t take us forward at all, and it’s been good to see people being called to order sometimes by comrades, on all sides.
I tend to agree with Alex about the ‘holier than thou’ tendency. I detect touches of Schadenfreude and the settling of old scores in some external commentary. Alex remarked to me once – and in a quite different context! – that sometimes wisdom consists in saying nothing. A useful thought, on occasion.
If there is a particular point to this, I would say that the understandable wish to wind the clock back to a period when the limits and parameters were generally understood to be different is – at this particular moment – very inappropriate. The present situation is extremely painful and worrying, but the way forward will not be helped by applying extreme administrative solutions.
I’m glad Alex wrote what he did.
Alex Callinicos:
Thanks to Paul LeBlanc for making a serious contribution to the discussion (something shamefully absent to date). Two observations: (i) LeBlanc ignores my stress on the importance of the united front, where we work on many issues with a broad spectrum of forces, including the likes of Owen Jones; (ii) Lenin's practice, we both agree, was very variable. I'm dubious about extrapolating from what he said when in a common party with the Mensheviks and treating this as eternal wisdom. 1917 redefined the nature of revolutionary politics. Of course there was room for debate within this framework, as there is definitely within that defining the political basis of the SWP, as anyone who has followed our recent history knows. But it is always necessary to define the limits of diversity, and the parameters of comradely debate. That in itself is a political choice - not just for the SWP, but for the ISO and other revolutionary organizations. No amount of playing holier than thou (I'm not accusing Paul of this but it's true of plenty of others) can evade this choice.
Colin Barker:
Alex wrote: “But it is always necessary to define the limits of diversity, and the parameters of comradely debate. That in itself is a political choice - not just for the SWP, but for the ISO and other revolutionary organizations. No amount of playing holier than thou (I'm not accusing Paul of this but it's true of plenty of others) can evade this choice.”
As a general proposition, what Alex says is surely correct. Those limits themselves, along with the parameters of comradely debate, are however also subject to determination by context. One of the things that does seem to have happened – one might say, “for good or ill” – is that what were previously thought of as limits have been altered. Until recently, Facebook and similar social media were not widely regarded as places where the internal life of organisations like ours could suitably be discussed. That’s changed, and it’s difficult to imagine that the clock can just be wound back – not, anyway, without heavy costs. I can’t but note with interest that someone has recently posed questions about whether such public internal debate might not also occur in and around bodies like the ISO. Pandora’s Box is open, in a sense, and we will need to learn to live with that.
Many comrades have, understandably, been very reticent about participating openly in the current shitstorm – and on all sides in the arguments, I’d add. What Alex calls ‘the parameters of comradely debate’ do seem to me to have been breached rather a lot in some of what I have seen – and especially in the ‘comments’ sections that have followed the appearance of many of the flurries of documents. Abusive personal remarks don’t take us forward at all, and it’s been good to see people being called to order sometimes by comrades, on all sides.
I tend to agree with Alex about the ‘holier than thou’ tendency. I detect touches of Schadenfreude and the settling of old scores in some external commentary. Alex remarked to me once – and in a quite different context! – that sometimes wisdom consists in saying nothing. A useful thought, on occasion.
If there is a particular point to this, I would say that the understandable wish to wind the clock back to a period when the limits and parameters were generally understood to be different is – at this particular moment – very inappropriate. The present situation is extremely painful and worrying, but the way forward will not be helped by applying extreme administrative solutions.
I’m glad Alex wrote what he did.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Rape deniers! FFS, none of us, not one person posting on this thread has anyway of judging if a rape took place. What we can judge is how well the SWP handled the allegations, and in mu my opinion thy made a might balls us of it from start to finish.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
This, and your other comment, with a quote apparently originating from, Corin Redgrave, a former member of the WRP, ascribed by you to bolshiebhoy is all very silly.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Bloody stupid. As with the Hallas page it's just tacky to abuse their prestige this way :-(
There is a case to be made but not with cheap shots like this.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I think silly is putting it mildly.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
I do have to say if someone accused me face to face of being neither for nor against rape the 'conversation' would be very short.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Cause it was a pretty shit thing to suggest I'd said and I found it a tad offensive. Good enough for you fella?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
with everything you have said, you're right, it was pointless and unnecessary to make up some auld bollocks. there's so much else which could have been used instead.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
care to add some content to that vacuous post?
discokermit
Well-Known Member
the reason you look like a current member is because you're such a hack. i mean, who in their right mind would consider rejoining after this debacle?
also, your constant use of terms like "seymourites", syriza light", etc., is straight from the cc slur machine. it shows you have no real understanding of the situation.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Hang on a mo. The politics of Seymour and Walker and 'Mayo' and the rest are there to see on their blogs. If it makes you a hack to see that when it's staring you in the face then so be it. The 'situation' has never been about one alleged incident alone.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Don't be such a plank, it came straight out of the barney slur machine.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
no it hasn't, but the disgust over the way the cc handled the situation is the one thing that unites the opposition. there are many differeing strands to the opposition, to describe them as "seymourites" is either stupid or disingenuous. anyway, seymour was quite late into the fray, if i remember right.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
You're totally right, the opposition has many strands and demands. The problem is that the 'IS' blog and other public faces of opposition are dominated by people demanding the cc stand down, without saying what group of people should replace them. Until those people say what their alternative cc looks like and what it stands for they will tend to be identified as his fan club. I can see why they don't want to, as that would reveal the divisions between the various wings of the opposition but maybe, just maybe, those divisions are more important that their points of agreement.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
there's a turn up.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
It comes from corin red graves defence of Gerry Healy, bolshiebhoys craven crawling to those whose aim was to exonerate their pal and cover up rape allegations from both their own members and the public reminded me of the filth trotted by Healy's supporters- he doesn't even have the excuse that he is loyal to his party, he isn't, as far as I am aware the Labour Party doesn't try to deal with rape allegations by purging those supporting the victim.
If bolshiebhoys finds it offensive, that was the intention.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Then you were out of order claiming he said it, and should edit your post.
I don't like BB's position on this issue, I think it and his defence of the SWP stinks but you can criticise him using what he's actually said rather than making shit up.
I don't like BB's position on this issue, I think it and his defence of the SWP stinks but you can criticise him using what he's actually said rather than making shit up.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Done as requested.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Ta, I don't want to be too po-faced but I'm just skimming this thread at work and really had thought that BB had said that.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Jesus that makes me feel worse than the original misquote ;-)
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
I think I need to be clearer, the SWP is a political joke. It lost any relationship with the actual working class decades ago, and perpetuates itself through hyper activity and a regular supply of impressionable radical students, upon whom the leadership depend financially, and prey sexually.
The dc 'investigation' consisted, as they themselves admit, of hearing the statements of the woman 'w' and of 'comrade' Delta.
They chose to believe Delta rather than W. they took their mates word over that of a young woman.
They then attempted to forestall any discussion of the case by expelling the Facebook four.
Their attempt to keep it completely quiet backfired, but this didn't stop them attempting to silence socialist unity and its transcript of the conference.
When someone chooses to believe the alleged assaulter over the victim, and then uses their position to suppress information about the case. That's rape denial.
Richard Seymour has supported and alibi-ed every twist and contortion of the SWP for years, and originally he did the same in this case, but he has run to the front of his, perhaps because he sees the chance to make himself a new mini cult, or maybe because he has grown a pair...
Unfortunately, the SWP is so effective in breeding sheep within its own ranks that the opposition has fallen over itself to fall in behind another leader, and so he gets more attention than he deserves.
Unfortunately, for some the sheep mentality continues even after leaving the SWP.
The dc 'investigation' consisted, as they themselves admit, of hearing the statements of the woman 'w' and of 'comrade' Delta.
They chose to believe Delta rather than W. they took their mates word over that of a young woman.
They then attempted to forestall any discussion of the case by expelling the Facebook four.
Their attempt to keep it completely quiet backfired, but this didn't stop them attempting to silence socialist unity and its transcript of the conference.
When someone chooses to believe the alleged assaulter over the victim, and then uses their position to suppress information about the case. That's rape denial.
Richard Seymour has supported and alibi-ed every twist and contortion of the SWP for years, and originally he did the same in this case, but he has run to the front of his, perhaps because he sees the chance to make himself a new mini cult, or maybe because he has grown a pair...
Unfortunately, the SWP is so effective in breeding sheep within its own ranks that the opposition has fallen over itself to fall in behind another leader, and so he gets more attention than he deserves.
Unfortunately, for some the sheep mentality continues even after leaving the SWP.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
The cc has investigated 9 alleged rapes, and decided 2 were 'genuine', had you heard of them?
discokermit
Well-Known Member
have you got a link to that? i've heard it mentioned but i haven't seen where from.
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