SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

I see you're still acting instinctively. Is living in denial so strong in your leninist dna?

He has a point though to lump in the Delta situation in the same league as Healey's systematic abuse of women comrades is frankly crackers. As would be someone lumping in last years anarchist grooming cases

 

[Louis MacNeice]

He has a point though to lump in the Delta situation in the same league as Healey's systematic abuse of women comrades is frankly crackers. As would be someone lumping in last years anarchist grooming cases

Yes, but he then tries to piggy back onto the correct dismissal of the Delta/Healy comparison, a further dismissal of any comparison between the politics of the SWP and the WRP; in that I think he's over egging the pudding.

What the two organisations share are/were largely unchanging leaderships, democratic centralism, a vanguard understanding of their revolutionary role and an appreciation that they are under attack by the bourgeois state (perhaps they also believe that they provide and example of an alternative socialist practice?).

It seems to me that these shared characteristics (shared by many more organisations than just the SWP and WRP), and their potential to impact on the respective investigations of Delta and Healy, are sufficient to make drawing political comparisons a legitimate exercise.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[pir]

The frightened Gironde liberal is indeed on the Independent website:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...es-miserables-are-getting-louder-8475667.html

WTF? So Jack Brindelli, stereotype of a SWP student member, having qualms about a likely rapist being cleared by the party should just man the fuck up, is that it? The Girondists got cold feet once the French Revolution got going - are you saying a committed revolutionary is expected to defend a likely rapist in the party's ranks? You sound just like Corin Redgrave defending Healy. ffs...........

 

[belboid]

WTF? So Jack Brindelli, stereotype of a SWP student member, having qualms about a likely rapist

likely? ffs...........

 

[pir]

likely? ffs...........

Likely in the sense that 97% of rape accusations are genuine and that there's a second SWp member making seperate accusations. I won't say anything further on that as that is all the information we have.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, but he then tries to piggy back onto the correct dismissal of the Delta/Healy comparison, a further dismissal of any comparison between the politics of the SWP and the WRP; in that I think he's over egging the pudding.

What the two organisations share are/were largely unchanging leaderships, democratic centralism, a vanguard understanding of their revolutionary role and an appreciation that they are under attack by the bourgeois state (perhaps they also believe that they provide and example of an alternative socialist practice?).

It seems to me that these shared characteristics (shared by many more organisations than just the SWP and WRP), and their potential to impact on the respective investigations of Delta and Healy, are sufficient to make drawing political comparisons a legitimate exercise.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

'an appreciation that they are under attack by the bourgeois state' extends not just to the cobweb left and the anarchists scene but to republicans, animal libbers, far right, nationalists, and a range of others groupings. Its this for me that then sets out a path that unless the complainant does go to the bourgeois legal system means that it has to be dealt with internally in some way. This path wouldn't be confined to vanguard, democratic centralist organisations and allegations of such behaviour won't be confined to them either just because of those characteristics.

I think some posters have attempted to set out what an internal way of dealing with allegations like these might look like , others are simply, equating Trotskyism with sexual cover ups.

 

[laptop]

It's quite odd that the worst they can find to say about Maxine is that she 'once had a review of a play about Mary Shelly published in Socialist Worker online'

It's the irony of her associating with feminists but exonerating an (alleged) rapist. See?

 

[belboid]

Likely in the sense that 97% of rape accusations are genuine and that there's a second SWp member making seperate accusations. I won't say anything further on that as that is all the information we have.

I hope you never are in a situation where you have to use logic is a life or death matter. Because you would die.

 

[belboid]

It's the irony of her associating with feminists but exonarating an (alleged) rapist. See?

aaah, of course, that makes sense now.

 

[The39thStep]

Likely in the sense that 97% of rape accusations are genuine and that there's a second SWp member making seperate accusations. I won't say anything further on that as that is all the information we have.

Where did you get that stat from?

 

[killer b]

Where did you get that stat from?

his arse.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I haven't read the whole thread, but what were the kommittee going to do if they found him guilty?

 

[belboid]

his arse.

nah, it is a commonly quoted figure, from reputable sources. Although it is wrong - the report (I am guessing) it comes from shows only 3% go to jail, a further 2% will be found guiltyt but somehow avoid jail, and it ignores the small (2-8%) number of false accusations.

http://falseallegations.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/2/

 

[belboid]

I haven't read the whole thread, but what were the kommittee going to do if they found him guilty?

Expel him, remove him from all party positions. That is all they can do as a party.

 

[pir]

Where did you get that stat from?

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf

p.99 :

Key findings
There are false allegations, and possibly slightly more than some researchers and
support agencies have suggested. However, at maximum they constitute nine per
cent and probably closer to three per cent of all rep orted cases. An over-
estimation of the scale by police officers and prosecutors feeds into a culture of
scepticism, which in turn leads to poor communication and loss of confidence
between complainants and the police.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Expel him, remove him from all party positions. That is all they can do as a party.

And not turned him in?

 

[belboid]

And not turned him in?

the alleger chose not to report it to the police.

 

[killer b]

Is there a half decent rundown of the case that could be posted up every time someone says they haven't read the thread then asks a stupid question?

 

[cesare]

And not turned him in?

The person putting the situation to the conference said that the complainant didn't want to go to the police.

 

[Bakunin]

The person putting the situation to the conference said that the complainant didn't want to go to the police.

Although a complainant not wanting to go to the police doesn't automatically mean a defendant won't be prosecuted, it just makes it less likely. In allegations of criminal conduct he police decide whether there's a case to investigate and the CPS decide whether the resulting evidence is enough for a prosecution. A complainant's consent to proceed with a case makes things easier, but isn't actually essential.

 

[The39thStep]

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf

p.99 :

Not wanting to detract from the serious issue of rape reporting but this study is based on reporting to the police and the later Stern report whilst mentioning research of 10% false claims called on the ministry of justice to do commission more research on this matter.

The delta case and this new accusation haven't been reported to the police have they?

 

[The39thStep]

his arse.

Using old home office research papers to wipe his arse with?

 

[The39thStep]

Is there a half decent rundown of the case that could be posted up every time someone says they haven't read the thread then asks a stupid question?

Sihi and ceseare have probably provided the most succinct summaries IMO

 

[articul8]

the alleger chose not to report it to the police.

or, the alleger "chose" not to report it to the police

 

[cesare]

Although a complainant not wanting to go to the police doesn't automatically mean a defendant won't be prosecuted, it just makes it less likely. In allegations of criminal conduct he police decide whether there's a case to investigate and the CPS decide whether the resulting evidence is enough for a prosecution. A complainant's consent to proceed with a case makes things easier, but isn't actually essential.

I didn't know this, cheers.

 

[emanymton]

Although a complainant not wanting to go to the police doesn't automatically mean a defendant won't be prosecuted, it just makes it less likely. In allegations of criminal conduct he police decide whether there's a case to investigate and the CPS decide whether the resulting evidence is enough for a prosecution. A complainant's consent to proceed with a case makes things easier, but isn't actually essential.

But considering the whole nature of a rape allegation is based on the question of consent, they could not practically proceed without the alleged victims support.

 

[emanymton]

Likely in the sense that 97% of rape accusations are genuine and that there's a second SWp member making seperate accusations. I won't say anything further on that as that is all the information we have.

But the second accusation is not one rape.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I haven't read the whole thread, but what were the kommittee going to do if they found him guilty?

according to their online statement, expel him.

There has been a series of attacks on the Socialist Workers Party in the media and by assorted bloggers. They concern the party’s handling of serious allegations against a leading member and the arguments (partly arising from the case) leading up to and during our recent conference.

This was an internal matter and we had promised full confidentiality to all involved. So we strongly condemn the publication of a transcript of a closed session of the conference discussing this case. The transcript was publicised against the wishes of the complainant herself.
The attacks are a travesty of the truth. We live in what remains a profoundly sexist society, as is shown by the sex abuse scandals and cover-ups in mainstream institutions such as the BBC and the police.

However, the SWP is not an institution of capitalist society but fights for the overthrow of the system. Our party has a proud tradition of fighting for women’s liberation, as is shown, for example, by our consistent campaigning over the decades to defend abortion, and by our criticism of George Galloway for his remarks about the Julian Assange rape accusations.

Reflecting this tradition, our internal structures seek to promote women to leading roles and deal rigorously with any action by any member that is harmful or disrespectful of women. It is in the context of this commitment that we took allegations against a leading member of the party very seriously.

Unlike the BBC or any other establishment body faced with such an allegation an investigation into this complaint immediately was set in place. The complainant made the choice not to go to the police, who are notorious for their systemic failure to defend women. Instead she asked for her complaint to be heard by the body within the SWP charged with dealing with disciplinary cases, the Disputes Committee. We respected that choice.

The Disputes Committee is a body of experienced members who had been unanimously elected by the previous conference. The attacks on it as a ‘sharia court’ are little short of racism. After a lengthy and thorough hearing, the Disputes Committee did not uphold the accusations and decided to take no disciplinary action.

Five of the seven members hearing the case were women, and one has experience as a rape counsellor. These included two members of the Central Committee, the elected leadership body of the SWP. Its members (who are always a minority on the DC) work with the DC to ensure the political integrity of the party, and to ensure the concerns and decisions of the DC are fed into the CC's work. At all times great efforts were taken to support the complainant. Had the Disputes Committee believed that the accused person was guilty, it would have expelled him from the SWP immediately.

The case was discussed at length at a session of our conference, which voted to accept the report and overwhelmingly re-elected the Disputes Committee. Far from being a cover up this sort of open discussion shows that our procedures and elected bodies are accountable to our membership. If this case had been raised within a trade union or any other organisation there would be no question that the matter should be treated with complete confidentiality. This basic principle should also apply in this case.

As far we are concerned, this case is closed. This is not a ‘cover up’. It is a determination to reflect the decision of our conference. We believe that both parties to the case should have their right to confidentiality and their right as members in good standing respected.

In solidarity

Charlie Kimber
SWP National Secretary
on behalf of the SWP Central Committee

 

[TremulousTetra]

SO! Have they split yet?

 

[mk12]

I believe we're just waiting for confirmation. I logged on expecting this thread to have hit 175 pages due to the fallout of the NC meeting...