SWP expulsions and squabbles

[belboid]

The branch meetings are based on themes provided on a list by the cc, I expect that title is at the head of the list. They will want to cauterize the wound asap.

Not sure about that. No other branches are having that meeting this week or next. Sheffield is home to one of the Disputes Commitee, and there is the events surrounding the ex-fulltimer discussed a day or two back as well.

 

[cantsin]

The Trots in the UK had largely monopolised visible, organised, "branded" lefty politics for several generations. Unlike other coutries where the CP, Maoists, Autonomists and Anarchists etc. swamped the Trots to the periphery/historcal footnote, for some reason here they were the first (and usually last) port of call for people wanting to get involved in a lefty group. Since WW2 the scene was dominated by the dynastic tendencies ( plus the upstsrt IMG) in their various incarnations. But they're all gone now

WRP - all gone.

IMG - all gone.

SWP - going, going , gone.

None og the little grouplets left have anything like the visibilty or influencr their parent orgs had. And memberships can be couted in their dozens.

The SWP ten years ago wrre "big". They ain't now. And a WRP style splintering will finish them as a meaningful force. They simply don't have the numbers to survive it.

Will the SP move on from the Trot brand? I'd guess so. But it's up to youse, no?

surely there were a lot of pretty obvious reasons that right thinking folk might have been swerving Maoists/CP Stalinists from the60's onwards, ie : the ever more apparent/widely accepted obscenities of Mao / Sov Union totalitarianism - it's more baffling why so many weren't opting for Trotskyism instead, at least there was some degree of ideological credibility remaining there, even if the Trot parties themselves were heading inevitably up the same old democratic centralist cul de sacs.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Noticed that the Prof had posted on fb a pic of two memorials to Foot and Harman that have been placed in Highgate cemetery. A current member, who I've some respect for, posted a comment, 'turning in their graves'. No surprise to see that this didn't go down well with some of the party loyalists.

Did that get deleted cause i can't see it? One guy has a pop at the alleged hero worship involved but that's clearly not a reference to any of this stuff.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Dunno when this letter was sent but it clearly needs a reply :-(

http://internationalsocialismuk.blo...1/anonymous-letter-to-national-secretary.html

 

[frogwoman]

I have to say that this thread and the whole debate around it has been very informative and it has started me off getting to look a lot more closely than I have done about a lot of the stuff to do with Leninism and democratic centralism as well as some articles about the Russian revolution which are very critical of Lenin, I am fast coming to the conclusion that while his leadership might hve been necessary in that situation he was actually a bit of a prick in many ways and that the Bolshevik party actually held back the revolution in some areas of Russia. I've learnt a lot from this thread tbh.

That isn't to say that I don't think that leninist parties like the SP don't do quite a lot of good and I knoiw because I have been part of some quite successful campaigns but I think the mode of organisation needs to be looked at again if things are going to progress further.

 

[frogwoman]

And by that I am quite happy to still be a member of the SP because of the good work that we have done locally and nationally as well as internationally, such as the Lindsey oil refinery strike etc, but I am not sure that I am a leninist at all, in fact i am probably not, I would say that I was a marxist rather than a leninist.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And by that I am quite happy to still be a member of the SP because of the good work that we have done locally and nationally as well as internationally, such as the Lindsey oil refinery strike etc, but I am not sure that I am a leninist at all, in fact i am probably not, I would say that I was a marxist rather than a leninist.

That's always been my stance too - there's plenty of useful stuff that's been written by the major 20th century Marxists (Lenin, Trotsky, Luxemburg, Gramsci etc) but IMO even if they got it right (which obviously they didn't always) they got it right for a specific time and place, and so the analysis isn't necessarily transferable.

Marx was the fucking man though.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Quite literally sometimes - just ask his maid

 

[emanymton]

And by that I am quite happy to still be a member of the SP because of the good work that we have done locally and nationally as well as internationally, such as the Lindsey oil refinery strike etc, but I am not sure that I am a leninist at all, in fact i am probably not, I would say that I was a marxist rather than a leninist.

You know I imagine there are lots of people in the SWP saying very similar things to themselves at the moment.

Well maybe not the last bit, but lots of I know the SWP isn't perfect but their are lots of good people in it and it does really important work.

 

[emanymton]

Quite literally sometimes - just ask his maid

You know the first time I heard about this my reaction was 'hang on never mind the pregnancy bit, he had a fucking maid!'

 

[brogdale]

Dunno when this letter was sent but it clearly needs a reply :-(

http://internationalsocialismuk.blo...1/anonymous-letter-to-national-secretary.html

Oh dear.
It's hard to imagine a reply that wouldn't include advice to take it to the (capitalists) police.

 

[SpineyNorman]

So would I if I could afford one tbf - although I'd employ a bloke to do it so as not to be accused of misogyny and that. I'd pay him well though.

 

[butchersapron]

You know the first time I heard about this my reaction was 'hang on never mind the pregnancy bit, he had a fucking maid!'

He didn't. His wife did.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And by that I am quite happy to still be a member of the SP because of the good work that we have done locally and nationally as well as internationally, such as the Lindsey oil refinery strike etc, but I am not sure that I am a leninist at all, in fact i am probably not, I would say that I was a marxist rather than a leninist.

The Kazakhstan and Tamil solidarity stuff definitely deserves an honourable mention along with Lindsey IMO.

My mate (you know him too) was the one sent down to Lyndsay when it first kicked off (though it turned out that there was a member in the workforce but he didn't know that when he went down) and he's got some good stories to tell about it. When he got back someone from the SWP had a go at him for getting involved in, and supporting, a 'nationalist strike'.

 

[frogwoman]

And the chinese stuff.

 

[emanymton]

He didn't. His wife did.

Yeah, I know that now.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Oh dear.
It's hard to imagine a reply that wouldn't include advice to take it to the (capitalists) police.

I think the point of the letter is she'd rather not but...

 

[brogdale]

I think the point of the letter is she'd rather not but...

Yeah, and hasn't apparently.
Just saying...quite a difficult call, really.

 

[The39thStep]

The dissidents have seized on the obviously factional stuff in Party Notes about Judith Orr's "well recieved" talk about women's liberation at the University of East Anglia. Bit of a silly hostage to fortune for the CC to give there:

http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/letter-to-national-secretary.html

That site is about as fascinating as the minutes from the AGM of my local allotments.

 

[redsquirrel]

Mekons dates later this year also.

Oh! You know if they are going to tour down under?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

swss statements flooding in now. LSE SWSS too :-(

 

[Random]

swss statements flooding in now. LSE SWSS too :-(

Statements for the national council?

 

[killer b]

our local swss is doing a meeting on the revolutionary teachings of leon trotsky, according to a load of flyposters i saw this morning. one not to miss.

 

[Pickman's model]

our local swss is doing a meeting on the revolutionary teachings of leon trotsky, according to a load of flyposters i saw this morning. one not to miss.

and increasingly relevant to trotskyism in britain today

 

[mk12]

swss statements flooding in now. LSE SWSS too :-(

This is important for the SWP's future development, as students make up such an important part of their yearly recruits.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

true

 

[SpackleFrog]

The Trots in the UK had largely monopolised visible, organised, "branded" lefty politics for several generations. Unlike other coutries where the CP, Maoists, Autonomists and Anarchists etc. swamped the Trots to the periphery/historcal footnote, for some reason here they were the first (and usually last) port of call for people wanting to get involved in a lefty group. Since WW2 the scene was dominated by the dynastic tendencies ( plus the upstsrt IMG) in their various incarnations. But they're all gone now

WRP - all gone.

IMG - all gone.

SWP - going, going , gone.

None og the little grouplets left have anything like the visibilty or influencr their parent orgs had. And memberships can be couted in their dozens.

The SWP ten years ago wrre "big". They ain't now. And a WRP style splintering will finish them as a meaningful force. They simply don't have the numbers to survive it.

Will the SP move on from the Trot brand? I'd guess so. But it's up to youse, no?

The WRP are still going through a series of tiny grouplets - saw a Newsline seller just the other day. The IMG also still exist, but they're called "Student Broad Left" now. I have to say I don't think we'll be the only 'trots' left standing.

 

[chilango]

The WRP are still going through a series of tiny grouplets - saw a Newsline seller just the other day. The IMG also still exist, but they're called "Student Broad Left" now. I have to say I don't think we'll be the only 'trots' left standing.

Yeah. There are little clubs of old believers dotted about. But in real terms the SWP and SP wete the only Trots that people might actually encounter engaged in actual activity.

I suspect that whatever fragments come ou of a shattered SWP will join the ranks of the tiny little grouplets with a name and a lineage and a membership in double figures. Utterly irrelevent except to trainspotters like us.

 

[audiotech]

Did that get deleted cause i can't see it?

With what you state I can only assume it has?

 

[Fedayn]

The Kazakhstan and Tamil solidarity stuff definitely deserves an honourable mention along with Lindsey IMO.

My mate (you know him too) was the one sent down to Lyndsay when it first kicked off (though it turned out that there was a member in the workforce but he didn't know that when he went down) and he's got some good stories to tell about it. When he got back someone from the SWP had a go at him for getting involved in, and supporting, a 'nationalist strike'.

That sort of bollocks was spouted on here too.