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Keanu Reeves
Should there be a second referendum? New question.
- Thread starter Sasaferrato
- Start date
Keanu Reeves
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
kim coates
not-bono-ever
meh
Neil Young and Rush ( But not the Randist Neal Peart)
isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Err, they didn't, Vote Leave was the official leave campaign.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Key difference is that big parties have at least some skin in the game if they lie at GEs. This wasn't true for the referendum (single purpose throwaway orgs), which makes it unsurprising (and foreseeable) that lots of completely shameless porkies would be sold to the electorate by Leave.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The super-punishement budget that we were threatened with by the then chancellor of the exchequer, the prime minister and the whole remain charabanc if we didn't do exactly as they told nus to was all fair comment. Just neutral no skin in the game objective economics. Reality in fact.
Lol right.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Thanks for this intelligent contribution.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Proving my point - thanks. This statement fucked Gideon when the vote came in.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
That’s an image I didn’t want in my head.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I’m guessing that most people in GEs don’t read every manifesto and weigh up every policy - instead they vote on a generalised idea of ‘Labour/Conservative is looking after my interests’.
Anyway the main difference is that in a GE the party that wins is in favour of its own policies and (usually) tries to put them into effect. By contrast all main parties were Remain and yet now need to effect Leave.
Sure there's differences, I wouldn't claim otherwise - I was just wanting to question the idea - popular here and elsewhere - that something like EU membership should never have been put to a public vote because it's too complicated and technical and no-one had a clear idea of what would happen next - government is also just as complicated and technical, and no-one has a clear idea of what will happen next, yet we put that to the vote every 5 years. As you say, people vote with general ideas about what will serve their best interests, or often which is the least-worst option. The exact same thing happened in the referendum.
The idea that massive lies aren't used with impunity in general elections is laughable too. One of the key policies which fed into the referendum result - austerity - is itself built on a huge lie, a much bigger lie than some bollocks on the side of a bus.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
But, every five years we get manifestos and leaflets and speeches and interviews from people telling us what they will do if we vote them into government. Although we know it is not a perfect recipe, and that politicians don't never lie, they are at least entering into government having committed to some sort of set of policies and proposals. What we had in this case was no particular plan. That's an unusual situation, to say the least, and it's no wonder at all that it's worked out as things often do if approached without a plan.
Incidentally, I'm not sure elections being also a load of shit provides a convincing argument as to why the referendum was not.
There seems to be a collective amnesia about the period between the referendum and the general election campaign of 2017. There was no real ambiguity about how the referendum result was to be carried out, and May's proposals were popular: The tories were 20 points ahead, May was adored in the parliamentary party and widely admired in the country. Tory MPs called her 'mummy'.
What's created the complexity isn't the nature of brexit itself - had she won a big majority, even carried on with the majority she had, it would have been relatively straightforward. The complexity was created by the 2017 general election result, which has left the tories beholden to the DUP, and strengthened factions within the party which were previously mostly powerless.
What's created the complexity isn't the nature of brexit itself - had she won a big majority, even carried on with the majority she had, it would have been relatively straightforward. The complexity was created by the 2017 general election result, which has left the tories beholden to the DUP, and strengthened factions within the party which were previously mostly powerless.
Riklet
procrastinación
Wait, another referendum because extracting Britain from 45 years in the EC/EU has proven to be slightly harder a task than was envisaged by Boris Johnson?
Last time I looked, in the past few days Angela Merkel was on an EU mission to Greece to make nice and the Tory Party was in absolute and utter meltdown. Quite a change from the good old days of 2015 eh.
Last time I looked, in the past few days Angela Merkel was on an EU mission to Greece to make nice and the Tory Party was in absolute and utter meltdown. Quite a change from the good old days of 2015 eh.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Make it go back before i even had to think about the EU and the why people would vote against it or what it does.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
When you say "execution", are we talking about the chopping block, like Chas One, or something more humane yet entertaining, like "The Running Ma'am"?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
What, that tubs of lard could speak?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
That hattersley was still alive
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You seem to be forgetting that until last summer David Davis was negotiating away and then theresa may sprang something completely different on everyone.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
If he had negotiated anything of substance beyond his expenses during that time, he'd have made sure by now that we knew about it.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
This is nonsense. It's not collective amnesia if there's nothing to remember. Until the Chequers proposal, May had given nothing in public beyong cake, eating and a really clever idea for what colour scheme Brexit should be. Maybe it was popular. Hard to tell. But it also wasn't anything. It's true that there was an undue sense of optimism in the Tory party, but this was to do with thinking that nothing could stop them with Corbyn as their opposition. And their 20-point lead turned out to be largely in the imagination of pollsters.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
That's a slightly rosey view of May's govt prior to the election isn't it?
Not that I'm disagreeing with your key point, although you could argue fighting an election on Brexit was likely to be divisive internally and with the electorate and inevitably led to weakening her position, as much as I think Corbyn's ideas got an echo...
The biggest issue with the proposed withdrawal agreement is all down to the Irish backstop, which would not need to exist if the DUP weren't a factor. Without having to rely on their votes, the government could have stuck a border in the Irish sea, negotiated the canada-ish free trade deal they were originally pointing towards and pushed it through: it wouldn't have been totally staightforward, but it wouldn't have been the multifaceted clusterfuck they're currently faced with.
And while there may have been polling errors, there was still a massive shift in the polls over the general election - Survation (who more or less called it with their eve of election poll) had an 11 point lead for the tories in their first poll of the campaign.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Think about this.
Please, do go on.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Well, the will of Urban at least is clear.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
For a remainferendum
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