Should there be a second referendum? New question.

[not-bono-ever]

I suspect that the North East will regret their 'Leave' vote for generations. No UK government is going to replace the EU money spent there.

The NE has been shit on for decades unfortunately

 

[butchersapron]

The NE has been shit on for decades unfortunately

Where does this div think 'EU money' comes from? From the magic EU money tree?

 

[Teaboy]

Where does this div think 'EU money' comes from? From the magic EU money tree?

Yeah this is it.

I had a conversation the other day with an Irish women who is now based in Southern Europe (seems to drift between France and Spain but mostly Spain) and she was saying how in countries like Spain and Ireland you see lots of signs saying that the EU paid for this road or reconstruction or whatever project. She suggested that you don't see these signs in the UK and maybe that's one reason why UK citizens have a negative view of the EU, people don't see the positives.

My attempt to discuss how the EU was funded and the difference between a net contributor and net receiver fell on pretty deaf ears.

 

[chilango]

You do see those signs though (or at least you used to) they were littered all over Wales when I was younger....

 

[skyscraper101]

I barely ever noticed them in England, but used to see them everywhere in Ireland, France, Spain etc when I'd travel there.

 

[danny la rouge]

She suggested that you don't see these signs in the UK

 

[Teaboy]

Clearly and English thing then. I don'r recall ever seeing one in England.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Part-founded by the EU, with UK money.

 

[danny la rouge]

Part-founded by the EU, with UK money.

Magic money.

 

[brogdale]

You do see those signs though (or at least you used to) they were littered all over Wales when I was younger....

Yep, even when Thatcher gave up on regional policy, the EEC/EU retained a belief in interventionist redistribution. The chance for present day (swivel-eyed) tory market fundamentalists to do away with such 'sticking plaster' stuff is just one small attraction of Brexit for them.

 

[mojo pixy]

Some of the EU's money spent in the UK might have been German or even *gasp* French.

 

[chilango]

I guess everyone loves America after all.

 

[not-bono-ever]

whatever money arrived in the NE,it wasn’t enough.either from London or wherever, it was like pissing in the sea. Far enough away to be just out of earshot.

 

[butchersapron]

It's well sneaky low level propaganda And it's worked.

 

[Teaboy]

Some of the EU's money spent in the UK might have been German or even *gasp* French.

I did think someone would miss the point.

Its not German money or French money its our bloody money. Just in case that's still too cryptic as in people who fund the EU.

 

[mojo pixy]

Well yes, like the money the council or the government spends.

Also, Germany and France are also Net Contributors, by some measures more so than the UK. So plenty of the ''money in the pot'' came from French or German taxpayers.

 

[brogdale]

I did think someone would miss the point.

Its not German money or French money its our bloody money. Just in case that's still too cryptic as in people who fund the EU.

Of course it was; any net contributor would obviously be funding any EU regional fund investment in their own state. That said, it's effectiveness as 'propaganda' was accentuated in the context of a domestic policy of free-market/laissez-faire attitude towards regional economic disparity. One of the reasons that Fatch hated the supra-state was their insistence on regional policy of 'assistance' to the periphery. As expemplified by (got on his bike) Tebbit, the market fundies believed in the (free!) movement of people to jobs whereas the supra-state held onto Germanic notions of ordoliberal intervention; taking jobs to people.

 

[Teaboy]

Well yes, like the money the council or the government spends.

Also, Germany and France are also Net Contributors, by some measures more so than the UK. So plenty of the ''money in the pot'' came from French or German taxpayers.

Woosh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I did think someone would miss the point.

Its not German money or French money its our bloody money. Just in case that's still too cryptic as in people who fund the EU.

What do you mean by 'our money'? Is this a taxpayer's alliance kind of statement? Whether or not you are a net contributor or net receiver depends on how you define your group. The UK as an area is a net contributor, but a region within that - Cornwall, say - will be a net recipient.

 

[mojo pixy]

Woosh.

Alright then, what do you mean? If you think I'm not getting something you're clearly communicating, don't be a dick about it, point it out.

 

[Teaboy]

Is this a taxpayer's alliance kind of statement?

Yes. Love em.

 

[chilango]

The working class are net givers.

The ruling class are net recipients.

 

[Teaboy]

Alright then, what do you mean? If you think I'm not getting something you're clearly communicating, don't be a dick about it, point it out.

OK. We pay our money to a government and as such we realistically expect them to invest in things like roads. The EU then bestow these gifts upon us, the things that we would realistically expect. They stick the signs up in certain areas to suggest you wouldn't have this without the EU, the signs may not work so well elsewhere...

 

[not-bono-ever]

EU funding invariably went to the newer ex sov bloc states to spread the love if you look at the proportions. The U.K. rust belt/ post industrial areas were still left to rot pretty much. No use chucking good money after bad etc. Purposeful policy embraced by both U.K. and EU powers ultimately. Once the workers were emasculated , they were forgotten about.

 

[Sasaferrato]

No we don't.

Well, we know more than we did.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well, we know more than we did.

I’d hope that would always be the case. Every day, after all, is a school day.

 

[mojo pixy]

OK. We pay our money to a government and as such we realistically expect them to invest in things like roads. The EU then bestow these gifts upon us, the things that we would realistically expect. They stick the signs up in certain areas to suggest you wouldn't have this without the EU, the signs may not work so well elsewhere...

Fine, well I don't see it as some gift or magic, I see it as the mundane workings of international interdependence, I see one hand washing the other, I see capitalist business as usual .. and I note in passing that capital-ism was largely invented in and still continues unassailably in Britain, so IMO scorning the EU on the basis of its neoliberal capitalism makes Brexit a pyrrhic victory at best. The Bank of England is going nowhere, and neither is the Conservative party (with the punchline that .. they're in charge of the process. lol)

What I actually meant though, is that France and Germany also have working classes who pay tax into the big EU pot. Italy too, and Spain -- and who gets the money is class-ridden. Property developers. Landowners. Entrepreneurs. Private companies running public services. But it's not about where (geographically) the money comes from, or where (geographically) it goes. The tax system. I mean, we have one too.

I also note that the most ardent remainers and second referendum wanters (sic) I know are many of those who sport a Keep Calm and Carry On slogan about their household

 

[SpookyFrank]

The working class are net givers.

The ruling class are net recipients.

This implies a level of consent that does not exist.

 

[chilango]

This implies a level of consent that does not exist.

Indeed.

Can we have a referendum about ending this relationship?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Indeed.

Can we have a referendum about ending this relationship?

The real people's vote would be: the ruling class, shoot them or string them up?

In the event of a tie we can go for the Mussolini option.