Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021

[Pickman's model]

Beliefs can be based on evidence, or can be pure blind faith.

yes.

 

[planetgeli]

Enough with the soap stuff. If you lack self-worth, get depressed, one of the first things to go is looking after yourself. But it's the lack of self worth and depression that comes first, it's that that needs tackling. Soap comes much later.

And, not saying it relates to this bloke, but all of our pupils at school are minging. They have the no self-worth because of adverse childhood experiences (you may call it abuse) but they also come from dirty, filthy homes where soap for the kids may not be a priority.

Understand the problems, not the symptoms.

 

[Orang Utan]

Something that came up in the book I am reading today that seems pertinent to the discussion in this thread

View attachment 283548

what book is that?

 

[pogofish]

The idea that non virgin women are "ruined" and therefore it's desperately awful for men to have "missed out" on sex with a virgin is a part of Incel ideology. Yes, it's about viewing women as property but part and parcel of that is a dubious fetishisation of very young women and female virginity.

Also, these guys seem to hold that a virgin, utterly in the thrall of her one and only “man” - in a cartoony/advertisement/stereotype - “perfect” 1950s housewife way (basically another chattel) is the one and only type of woman worthy of actually getting into a relationship with. Which of course sets a near-unattainable goal/expectation for them.

I’d also say that “ruined” is often used in a more specific/targeted way - towards women who have had relationships with people from darker races.

 

[BigMoaner]

Enough with the soap stuff. If you lack self-worth, get depressed, one of the first things to go is looking after yourself. But it's the lack of self worth and depression that comes first, it's that that needs tackling. Soap comes much later.

And, not saying it relates to this bloke, but all of our pupils at school are minging. They have the no self-worth because of adverse childhood experiences (you may call it abuse) but they also come from dirty, filthy homes where soap for the kids may not be a priority.

Understand the problems, not the symptoms.

And they are all incels?

 

[planetgeli]

And they are all incels?

Who are 'they'?

 

[kabbes]

what book is that?

“Psychology, Humour and Class — A Critique of Contemporary Psychology”, Babak Fozooni, Routledge, 2020.

 

[Griff]

My decision tree would look like this:

Are you a farmer who needs a gun to kill animals occasionally? Yes, have a licensed gun.

Are you someone who likes to kill animals for fun? No, no gun for you.

As for people who like to shoot targets, they can do that with an air rifle under supervision or something. Weirdos.

I own a shotgun, I have never shot an animal in my life.

I enjoy a bit of clay-pigeon shooting, it's a good fun way to spend a few hours honing a skill.I also live in London, not the country. Maybe try it.

That fucking cunt of a loser would have used a knife or ram people with a car if he didn't have a gun, and sounds like he slipped through the net probably down to poxy Covid restrictions. My licence was renewed last year and because Covid, it was done over the phone with the Fire-Arms Officer and no home visit.

 

[BigMoaner]

Who are 'they'?

The people in your class! I'm not sure how they are linked to incels? People who identify as involuntarily celebrate who frequent such communities?

 

[klang]

My licence was renewed last year and because Covid, it was done over the phone with the Fire-Arms Officer and no home visit.

fucking hell

 

[hitmouse]

Enough with the soap stuff. If you lack self-worth, get depressed, one of the first things to go is looking after yourself. But it's the lack of self worth and depression that comes first, it's that that needs tackling. Soap comes much later.

And, not saying it relates to this bloke, but all of our pupils at school are minging. They have the no self-worth because of adverse childhood experiences (you may call it abuse) but they also come from dirty, filthy homes where soap for the kids may not be a priority.

Understand the problems, not the symptoms.

I'd been wondering if it was too much of a derail to post 4chan shrimp guy on a fairly heavy serious thread, but fuck it, I think 4chan shrimp guy is kind of relevant to the discussion here. I suppose the question is how do we get other people in that situation to find their shrimp?

The people in your class! I'm not sure how they are linked to incels? People who identify as involuntarily celebrate who frequent such communities?

Cos of having a lack of self-worth and depression, which puts them at risk of being in the pool that those communities draw from?

 

[planetgeli]

The people in your class! I'm not sure how they are linked to incels? People who identify as involuntarily celebrate who frequent such communities?

So you missed this bit?

not saying it relates to this bloke,

I was making a point about what was starting to come across as an incredibly snobby "why don't they just use soap" attitude. The first part of my post explains why depressed people might not. The second part goes on, to counter this snobbery, to show not all minging people can even help it if they don't even control the conditions they live in. I preceded this with 'not saying it relates to this bloke'.

Now which bit wasn't clear to you?

 

[hitmouse]

That fucking cunt of a loser would have used a knife or ram people with a car if he didn't have a gun, and sounds like he slipped through the net probably down to poxy Covid restrictions. My licence was renewed last year and because Covid, it was done over the phone with the Fire-Arms Officer and no home visit.

I don't think we can blame covid restrictions for the cops giving him his gun licence back after it was taken away following an assault allegation, though.

 

[Griff]

I don't think we can blame covid restrictions for the cops giving him his gun licence back after it was taken away following an assault allegation, though.

OK, point taken.

 

[souljacker]

Yknow, I don’t really care about people who shoot clay pigeons. I just don’t think guns need to be about in the community. That’s pretty much it for me.

(sure your Dads a lovely fella souljacker )

Proper sports shooters (whether that's clay pigeon or .22s or whatever) wouldn't let their guns get into the community. They are locked up safely in a gun safe. My old man isn't actually allowed to keep any ammo either. They are all kept at the range he shoots at and need to be signed in and out whenever he goes to shoot (you have to return the empty bullets too).

 

[Smokeandsteam]

manosphere but I've not read/can't think of them right now, I'd say Dale Beran's It Came From Something Awful is a pretty good guide to 4chan and related internet subcultures that gives a decent amount of detail on the origins of that stuff. Not a perfect book, but certainly better than certain other rushed-out cash-in texts. We Hunted the Mammoth t

Nice one. Thanks hitmouse

 

[Pickman's model]

Enough with the soap stuff. If you lack self-worth, get depressed, one of the first things to go is looking after yourself. But it's the lack of self worth and depression that comes first, it's that that needs tackling. Soap comes much later.

And, not saying it relates to this bloke, but all of our pupils at school are minging. They have the no self-worth because of adverse childhood experiences (you may call it abuse) but they also come from dirty, filthy homes where soap for the kids may not be a priority.

Understand the problems, not the symptoms.

that's one perspective, granted. but maybe there's an alternative, which is do what you can to make yourself more attractive to others, because your way of looking at it seems to me may lock people into a cycle of despair until the underlying causes are addressed. sure, lack of self-worth can lead to less care of the self. but by reducing the impact of the symptoms a degree of self-worth might be regained. certainly when i've been depressed in the past waiting for that core issue to be resolved didn't work nearly as much for me (obvs ymmv) as dealing with aspects of the problem - the symptoms you mention - did, on the basis of 'fake it till you make it'.

 

[BillRiver]

that's one perspective, granted. but maybe there's an alternative, which is do what you can to make yourself more attractive to others, because your way of looking at it seems to me may lock people into a cycle of despair until the underlying causes are addressed. sure, lack of self-worth can lead to less care of the self. but by reducing the impact of the symptoms a degree of self-worth might be regained. certainly when i've been depressed in the past waiting for that core issue to be resolved didn't work nearly as much for me (obvs ymmv) as dealing with aspects of the problem - the symptoms you mention - did, on the basis of 'fake it till you make it'.

It's nice that it worked that way for you, but for many severely depressed/traumatised people it doesn't. Let alone those without access to the material resources involved.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's nice that it worked that way for you, but for many severely depressed/traumatised people it doesn't.

when i put in ymmv i thought that it would be clear i wasn't stating a universal truth

e2a: i didn't see your edit until just now, but i don't see how it really matters when the point i've made is 'do what you can to make yourself more attractive to others', i'm not saying 'go out and spend loads of money to make yourself more attactive'.

 

[brogdale]

The irony...

 

[tim]

And, not saying it relates to this bloke, but all of our pupils at school are minging. They have the no self-worth because of adverse childhood experiences (you may call it abuse) but they also come from dirty, filthy homes where soap for the kids may not be a priority.

Understand the problems, not the symptoms.

I don't get the impression that you have much respect for the kids that you teach or the families that they come from. I don't believe in that every child you teach stinks, and I can't imagine being taught by someone who regards you as a stinking child amongst a mob of stinking children, would do anything to improve anyone's self-esteem.

 

[IC3D]

Diverging slightly but isis are an incel organisation. Alienated young men offered a gun, a wife with a reason to kill. Largely recruited through social media.

 

[planetgeli]

I don't get the impression that you have much respect for the kids that you teach or the families that they come from. I don't believe in that every child you teach stinks, and I can't imagine being taught by someone who regards you as a stinking child amongst a mob of stinking children, would do anything to improve anyone's self-esteem.

Get what impression you like, you mean nothing to me. I advocate for them, which you'll see if you read my posts. Buggered if I'm going to take up some pretend liberal position that doesn't acknowledge the shit these kids live in.

 

[Aladdin]

Because there is no such thing as a context-free “free choice”. He wasn’t born with misogyny or hatred or alienated or anything else. Mojo’s post is spot on. He became something inside a culture. It’s not just “free choice, he’s a monster, nothing more to see.”

I did not imply in any way that he was a "monster ".
It's clear that there are quite a few men like him. And I doubt anyone thinks they are "monsters".

 

[kabbes]

I did not imply in any way that he was a "monster ".
It's clear that there are quite a few men like him. And I doubt anyone thinks they are "monsters".

If you refuse to look at the context that created a person, if you just pin it all — every bit of it — on free choice, all that is left is to say that the perpetrator of horrors is a monster.

 

[Aladdin]

i entirely agree. so often with relationships while you're actively looking you'll never find what you're after but when you stop looking you find one.

See....I dont even like that .
Sorry but to me "getting to know " a person is a big deal. Getting to underatand them...listening to them. It's a very big thing to enter into someone's intimate space and I don't mean sex..I mean just really getting to know another human being as more than a collection of cells and skincare products.

"Stop looking and you find one" just isnt where I am in my view of people and how massively priveledge it should be to become a part of another human being's life.

I'm not criticising you. So don't feel that please.

Just another way of looking at what is probably the most precious thing in life...friendship and getting to truly know another person.

 

[Aladdin]

If you refuse to look at the context that created a person, if you just pin it all — every bit of it — on free choice, all that is left is to say that the perpetrator of horrors is a monster.

And I didnt do that either.

And yes something in this man's life turned him against his best self. What that was? Media? Online games where women are objectified and killed? I dont know. The only one who knows is the man himself.

 

[tim]

Get what impression you like, you mean nothing to me. I advocate for them, which you'll see if you read my posts. Buggered if I'm going to take up some pretend liberal position that doesn't acknowledge the shit these kids live in.

You may advocate for them, but you also objectify them.

 

[Aladdin]

Because those things are often at the heart of one's sense of achievement and self-worth, social attitudes and feelings of inclusion or exclusion, personal resilience etc.

That is the biggest problem with society.
The internal life is not appreciated or developed.

 

[Pickman's model]

See....I dont even like that .
Sorry but to me "getting to know " a person is a big deal. Getting to underatand them...listening to them. It's a very big thing to enter into someone's intimate space and I don't mean sex..I mean just really getting to know another human being as more than a collection of cells and skincare products.

"Stop looking and you find one" just isnt where I am in my view of people and how massively priveledge it should be to become a part of another human being's life.

I'm not criticising you. So don't feel that please.

Just another way of looking at what is probably the most precious thing in life...friendship and intimacy.

I never went looking for Mrs model, we met by chance and have been together for 14 years. If you go out desperately wanting a shag or relationship it's my experience and observation that you're less likely to find either, that altho Wendy James may have loved desperation in 'i want your love' irl desperation is something of a turn-off.

I share your view that a relationship of equals is very rewarding,that you can find something new and positive about your partner every day. But I expect most relationships start off with lust, not with an appreciation of the complexity of the desired's personality