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Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021

Sugar Kane said:
It's not something that you'll find in a working class area though.
Miners who lost their jobs didnt treat the women who still had their jobs like this.

It's a mindset that encorporates a sense of entitlement and that comes from priveledge. It comes from a sense of superiority.

The question is why do they feel superior to women?
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Erm...sorry to go on about my job as it seems to piss off some here but yes, I work in one of the most economically deprived places in the UK with the children of deprivation. All my kids, bar one, have been working class over my 4 years there. A couple of them might even be candidates for this in the future. Their deprivation does drive their misogyny as they are looking for blame outside of themselves and their situation. I hear the word bitch about 1000 times a day (cunt only 999 times). The feeling against women is strong. We don't have much multiculturalism here, just a few Poles really who, sure, get the odd term of abuse thrown their way. But nothing like the hatred of women.

Deprivation drives a need for simple solutions. Blame is easily attached. The blame on women doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of every day structural stuff which sees women as second class.
 
planetgeli said:
Erm...sorry to go on about my job as it seems to piss off some here but yes, I work in one of the most economically deprived places in the UK with the children of deprivation. All my kids, bar one, have been working class over my 4 years there. A couple of them might even be candidates for this in the future. Their deprivation does drive their misogyny as they are looking for blame outside of themselves and their situation. I hear the word bitch about 1000 times a day (cunt only 999 times). The feeling against women is strong. We don't have much multiculturalism here, just a few Poles really who, sure, get the odd term of abuse thrown their way. But nothing like the hatred of women.

Deprivation drives a need for simple solutions. Blame is easily attached. The blame on women doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of every day structural stuff which sees women as second class.
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What’s the feeling against women made of though? Is it to do with women taking the jobs or is it to do with women not giving them sex or both or neither?
 
Sugar Kane said:
It's not something that you'll find in a working class area though.
Miners who lost their jobs didnt treat the women who still had their jobs like this.

It's a mindset that encorporates a sense of entitlement and that comes from priveledge. It comes from a sense of superiority.

The question is why do they feel superior to women?
Click to expand...
I don't think they feel superior to women so much as inferior to another man who has a woman. I don't think they see women as individuals in their own right but as something to possess like a car or a bike.
 
bimble said:
What’s the feeling against women made of though? Is it to do with women taking the jobs or is it to do with women not giving them sex or both or neither?
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They're kids so no, it has nothing to do with women taking their jobs. It's to do with poverty and hopelessness, society's attitudes to women that get magnified through a lens of deprivation, domestic abuse they witness on a daily basis and (some) see no problem with repeating. Women who give them sex are slags (another common word at school) and those who don't are denigrated for their lack of sexual attraction (ugly bitch etc).

Funnily enough the girls don't come out with any equivalents to this. Though even some of them may join in with the slag/bitch fest if they think it suits them at that time.
 
planetgeli said:
Erm...sorry to go on about my job as it seems to piss off some here but yes, I work in one of the most economically deprived places in the UK with the children of deprivation. All my kids, bar one, have been working class over my 4 years there. A couple of them might even be candidates for this in the future. Their deprivation does drive their misogyny as they are looking for blame outside of themselves and their situation. I hear the word bitch about 1000 times a day (cunt only 999 times). The feeling against women is strong. We don't have much multiculturalism here, just a few Poles really who, sure, get the odd term of abuse thrown their way. But nothing like the hatred of women.

Deprivation drives a need for simple solutions. Blame is easily attached. The blame on women doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of every day structural stuff which sees women as second class.
Click to expand...


I also work with kids from very deprived areas. And yes the words "bitch" and "cunt" are littered through every sentence .... by both young males and young females.
I see teenage girl gangs and the equivalent among boys.

If they place blame anywherw I see them put the blame for their situation onto those outside of their environment. Not onto women. I've noticed how they encourage each other...and how the teenage lads will actually stand up for the girls. So I cant say I have seen similar to what you've seen in my 25 years workig with inner city kids from some of the most deprived areas in Ireland.

It could be that Ireland has a different mindset? People have had to leave the country for generations to get work. And that creates a sense of recognition that you can get out of a bad situation and have the chance to do better elsewhere.

So maybe there is a societal essence there. A societal mindset that prompts the individual to movement in a particular direction. And perhaps factors like inbred mysoginy then effect the individual.
 
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Sugar Kane said:
I see them put the blame for their situation onto those outside of their environment. Not onto women. I've noticed how they encourage each other...and how the teenage lads will actually stand up for the girls. So I cant say I have seen similar to what you've seen in my 25 years workig with inner city kids from some of the most deprived areas in Ireland.

It could be that Ireland has a different mindset? People have had to leave the country for generations to get work. And that creates a sense of recognition that you can get out of a bad situation and have the chance to do better elsewhere.
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Where do they put the blame outside of their environment? Genuine question.

Where I live and work is incredibly insular and parochial. So maybe you have a point about the Irish and emigration making a different mindset. A lot of people in Wales see the Severn Bridge as some insurmountable barrier. People in Llanelli stay in Llanelli. They know nothing of any outside environment. We take 14 year old kids to the Gower who have never been there. They live 4 miles away.

Everything is very...concentrated here.
 
bimble said:
What’s the feeling against women made of though? Is it to do with women taking the jobs or is it to do with women not giving them sex or both or neither?
Click to expand...
From the few I have met in real life, they convey thay they have "tried everything", that no one pays them any attention, all the women run off with "bad boys and Chad's" and this makes the woman shallow and cruel.

Them often saying this to me without having shaved for two weeks, with a t shirt two sizes too big or small, and smelling slightly of body odour.
 
I think there's a fair few autistic, spectrum types with marked social skills due to something underlying. And that must be hard if you feel you'll never experience intimacy. But still no justification ever of putting the blame on women.
 
BigMoaner said:
From the few I have met in real life, they convey thay they have "tried everything", that no one pays them any attention, all the women run off with "bad boys and Chad's" and this makes the woman shallow and cruel.

Them often saying this to me without having shaved for two weeks, with a t shirt two sizes too big or small, and smelling slightly of body odour.
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Oh yep. Was asking about the children planetgeli works with, their women-hating, not the men already fallen into that trap.
 
BigMoaner said:
I think there's a fair few autistic, spectrum types with marked social skills due to something underlying. And that must be hard if you feel you'll never experience intimacy. But still no justification ever of putting the blame on women.
Click to expand...

I'm an 'autistic spectrum type' with shit social skills. At this kid's age I wasn't winning any prizes for romantic conquests. But I knew that women were people with feelings and agency so I never murdered any of them.

I'm not a fan of people remotely diagnosing others as neurodivergent just because they do something fucked up. I very much doubt that neurodivergent people are overrepresented among violent criminals.
 
In England and Wales ( I presume Scotland is the same) there is a marked difference between the issue of Firearms Licenses and Shotgun certificates. To over simplify NPCC Guidance and stated cases say that there is a presumption shotgun certificate should be issued, so if someone asks for one and meets the fairly low criteria it’s up to old bill to say no; if they do say no there is a high likelihood of the applicant getting that overturned in court. Given that most forces, having no money, have now reduced their firearms licensing department to one 75 year old retired detective constable on £12k a year because they get a pension, most chiefs will avoid the costs of going to court if someone appeals a refusal and roll over.

For Firearms licenses the onus is far more on the applicant to prove why they need the weapon/tool with the presumption being no.

If this cunt did use a shotgun he held lawfully on a certificate I suspect this position will now change relatively quickly.
 
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eatmorecheese said:
Christ. A distillation of raw wanker into concentrated cunt.
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SpookyFrank said:
I'm an 'autistic spectrum type' with shit social skills. At this kid's age I wasn't winning any prizes for romantic conquests. But I knew that women were people with feelings and agency so I never murdered any of them.

I'm not a fan of people remotely diagnosing others as neurodivergent just becausd they do something fucked up. I very much doubt that neurodivergent people are overrepresented among violent criminals.
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It was more that those I had met in real life had I think some underlying neurodivergant issues. Perhaps. Am assumption on my part, I admit. Never would suggest that those I had met would go onto commit the stuff that this arse hole did. Others I have met, were just resentful bitter whiners. Again, highly doubt they would start acting out
 
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bimble said:
What’s the feeling against women made of though? Is it to do with women taking the jobs or is it to do with women not giving them sex or both or neither?
Click to expand...

I think it really stems from a belief that men are superior because they are men and have been in a position of power over women for thousands of years up to relatively recently. That sense doesnt disappear...

planetgeli said:
Where do they put the blame outside of their environment? Genuine question.

Where I live and work is incredibly insular and parochial. So maybe you have a point about the Irish and emigration making a different mindset. A lot of people in Wales see the Severn Bridge as some insurmountable barrier. People in Llanelli stay in Llanelli. They know nothing of any outside environment. We take 14 year old kids to the Gower who have never been there. They live 4 miles away.

Everything is very...concentrated here.
Click to expand...

Many of the teenagers I work with would have no time for the gardai or authority. Some are in and out of jail by the time they are 18 and others are in and out of jail visiting their families. Many are clued in to getting every state benefit they can and this is generational. Some are into drugs and dealing. Or are connected with drugs and dealers. Some are involved in criminality. I've heard some on yard talking about how they're going to get x amount of money when they're whatever age. And how they'll buy the Gucci thing for their baby. They're absolutely not interested in working or getting a job. Many of the girls are not interested in getting married. They are reasonably happy to be motivated to get some education and leave school with certification or even go on to further training once they're being paid to do so but very few last in employment longterm.
I recall one girl coming back to visit me and she had her newborn baby with her. We chatted...and she left saying "look at me miss...I got my babies and I got my house....look at you? You've only got this place".

...I think they notice those who are different to them in terms of background and they stick to what they view as "their own". There is a definite sense of belonging to an area. Belonging to a community. Belonging to a way of life that is very much part and parcel of their environment and upbringing.
Dont know if that answers the question?


The teenagers I see with the more complex issues tend to come from what would be traditionally called lower middle class.
 
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I haven't watched his ''final video'', I absolutely hate the ''final videos'' of killers. Nothing would please them more, than thinking everyone saw their final, agonized utterings. So fuck that, and fuck them.

There's no news yet on whether or how he knew the people he killed, other than his mother. Talk of misogyny in general terms is important regarding the background to this and the 'culture' that fed his mental illness(es); but what seems to have happened is, he killed his mother. After what exchange, who knows? Nobody will ever.

Then he went outside, full of adrenaline and no doubt a sense of ''nothing to lose now'' and killed the first few people he saw, then himself. It's still to become clear if he knew any of the people he killed (except for his mum) but I tend to agree, seeing a young man with a small child will have been a trigger. At least as I understand ''blackpill'' nihilism, it would have been a trigger .. for the person I'm trying to construct from what I'm reading (as we all are). The elderly couple, who knows. Maybe they were just holding hands ffs. We may never know and it doesn't really matter.

I think painting this atrocity as primarily misogynist in nature neglects that the person he started with was his mother, but he didn't go on to target specifically women or girls. To me it looks intensely personal, that no doubt he had misogynist views, but mainly he was mentally ill and suicidal. Incel 'culture' may be first in line for a bashing here, but that wouldn't exist at all without the atomisation of society that has led us to this sorry state. It's not being focussed on as the problem, because it's too big of a problem, and it's too enmeshed with capitalism and neoliberalism in general .. and that's not the lesson we're all meant to learn here.

Did this man have a decent (or any) male role models or father in his life? Did he suffer abuse as a child? How did he do at school? Was he bullied? Who by?

Obviously at the end, there's only one person to blame for this: Jake Davison. But who he was speaks to how he was made, and how men like him are made from boys like he was at one time. None of us grow up in a vacuum, we are cared for, taught, and entertained by other people. None of those are responsible for what we choose to do, but looking at them can often explain why we make the choices we make.
 
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And just to confuse shotguns can fall into three of the four categories of firearms.

Shotguns (obvs) defined by minimum length and maximum capacity. You need a shotgun certificate.
S1 Firearms, capacity, people can have them if the have a good reason and a firearms license.
S5 firearms defined by length overall and of the barrel. No one privately can have them. Just police, military and museums.
 
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SpookyFrank said:
I'm an 'autistic spectrum type' with shit social skills. At this kid's age I wasn't winning any prizes for romantic conquests. But I knew that women were people with feelings and agency so I never murdered any of them.

I'm not a fan of people remotely diagnosing others as neurodivergent just because they do something fucked up. I very much doubt that neurodivergent people are overrepresented among violent criminals.
Click to expand...
Yep, and despite believing that the OB were wrong to dismiss 'terrorism' too quickly in this case, it's always important to guard against moral panic type of 'analyses'.

I couldn't help but notice at least one mainstream media outlet mentioning Davison's apparent proclivity for 'shoot 'em up' gaming and the old Stanley Cohen klaxon went off in my head.
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Yeah, the comments on crops and farmers were completely weird and misplaced.



There's a variation on a license either for a shotgun that has limited capacity for holding ammunition (either a single or double barrel, or a pump or semi-automatic that is limited to holding 1 in the chamber + 2 in the magazine) or a pump action or semi-automatic shotgun that can hold more than that (usually 1 + 7-9 or so). The later are usually only given to farmers, professional pest control workers, or people that do practical shotgun as a hobby (mentioned elsewhere).

The later are commonly known as FAC (firearms certificate) shotguns. I think it's a bit historical when there was a clear difference between shotguns and other firearms such as rifles and pistols.
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Yeah, which is why it’s important to know which he had. If it was “just” a shotgun license then him getting it back was pretty much a formality, as the bar to owning one really isn’t very high. If he did have a FAC the police have seriously fucked up. Either way, it’s time for shotgun licensing to be tightened.

The other implication if it was a restrcited capacity 3 round pump gun is that this wasn’t just a frenzy, the cunt had to stop and take time to reload.
 
mojo pixy said:
I haven't watched his ''final video'', I absolutely hate the ''final videos'' of killers. Nothing would please them more, than thinking everyone saw their final, agonized utterings. So fuck that, and fuck them.

There's no news yet on whether or how he knew the people he killed, other than his mother. Talk of misogyny in general terms is important regarding the background to this and the 'culture' that fed his mental illness(es); but what seems to have happened is, he killed his mother. After what exchange, who knows? Nobody will ever.

Then he went outside, full of adrenaline and no doubt a sense of ''nothing to lose now'' and killed the first few people he saw, then himself. It's still to become clear if he knew any of the people he killed (except for his mum) but I tend to agree, seeing a young man with a small child will have been a trigger. At least as I understand ''blackpill'' nihilism, it would have been a trigger .. for the person I'm trying to construct from what I'm reading (as we all are). The elderly couple, who knows. Maybe they were just holding hands ffs. We may never know and it doesn't really matter.

I think painting this atrocity as primarily misogynist in nature neglects that the person he started with was his mother, but he didn't go on to target specifically women or girls. To me it looks intensely personal, that no doubt he had misogynist views, but mainly he was mentally ill and suicidal. Incel 'culture' may be first in line for a bashing here, but that wouldn't exist at all without the atomisation of society that has led us to this sorry state. It's not being focussed on as the problem, because it's too big of a problem, and it's too enmeshed with capitalism and neoliberalism in general .. and that's not the lesson we're all meant to learn here.

Did this man have a decent (or any) male role models or father in his life? Did he suffer abuse as a child? How did he do at school? Was he bullied? Who by?

Obviously at the end, there's only one person to blame for this: Jake Davison. But who he was speaks to how he was made, and how men like him are made from boys like he was at one time. None of us grow up in a vacuum, we are cared for, taught, and entertained by other people. None of those are responsible for what we choose to do, but looking at them can often explain why we make the choices we make.
Click to expand...



And it does seem that his mother had been seeking help for him...and possibly herself. How awful for her to be in that position and not get the help needed.
I feel more for his mother than I do for him.

However he was apparently quite intelligent and his warped views were self feeding. He chose to mix online with these incel groups.
Why does his education or the fact he might or might not have been bullied as a kid in school need any space in this?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
I can’t pretend that I’ve every really clocked or read anything about this Incel stuff. But the idea of wanting to join a group/go to a meeting etc with fellow losers seems incredible to me. I would be very interested if anyone here can recommend some good reading on this sub-culture, how it organises itself, it’s ‘manifestos’, it’s composition, origins etc.
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I'm sure there's some books specifically on the manosphere but I've not read/can't think of them right now, I'd say Dale Beran's It Came From Something Awful is a pretty good guide to 4chan and related internet subcultures that gives a decent amount of detail on the origins of that stuff. Not a perfect book, but certainly better than certain other rushed-out cash-in texts. We Hunted the Mammoth tracks a lot of this culture in more or less real-time:

We Hunted The Mammoth is coming soon

We are doing some maintenance on our site. Please come back later.
wehuntedthemammoth.com
Their most recent post collects some responses to the shooting from incel discussions, so heavy warning to not click through if you don't feel like reading some disgusting shit:

We Hunted The Mammoth is coming soon

We are doing some maintenance on our site. Please come back later.
wehuntedthemammoth.com
Orang Utan said:
i wasn’t just talking about incels’ ideology though - other terrorist attacks seem to be motivated more by spite than ideology - the ideology just being a convenient framework for their dysfunction - maybe it’s just that modern terrorism needs redefining - our generation is used to considering terrorism as carried out by political groups with specific aims and demands
Click to expand...
Yeah, I keep thinking of the ISIS parallel here - how far can a lot of the recentish ISIS attacks be said to have been carried out in the service of specific goals?
Sugar Kane said:
It's not something that you'll find in a working class area though.
Miners who lost their jobs didnt treat the women who still had their jobs like this.

It's a mindset that encorporates a sense of entitlement and that comes from priveledge. It comes from a sense of superiority.

The question is why do they feel superior to women?
Click to expand...
MickiQ kind of said this above, but I think one of the weird and distinctive things about incels is how far it comes from a sense of inferiority, endlessly measuring themselves against the alphas and gigachads and finding themselves wanting. People who have some kind of a sense of self-worth don't respond to rejection this way.
 
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